Avoiding Knee Surgery: Joey's Journey from Injury to Optimism

Episode 345: Have you ever torn your meniscus? Been told you must have surgery? Joey injured his knee while training BJJ- turns out it was a torn meniscus. He got an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scan, saw his physiotherapist and while the scan didn't reveal much new info he was advised to talk to a Knee surgeon. Joey was under the impression that Surgery was unavoidable- Can a torn Meniscus heal itself?? This discussion unpacks many of the expectations, misconceptions and new approaches to medical treatment for Jiu-Jitsu folks suffering from meniscus injuries. If you have had any surprising treatments that helped you overcome a knee injury let us know in the comments.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

you better listen very carefully. A good martial artist does not become tense, but ready. Essentially, at this point the fight is over, so you pretty much flow with the goal. Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power? I'm ready.

Speaker 1: 0:30

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Speaker 1: 1:10

Have you got a sore knee? Have you got a meniscus problem? Have you had an aching knee and you don't know what's going on? A good friend of mine has slash. Does Joseph Worthington please talk to me about your knee? I love the way you open with that, talking to the peoples guys, if you don't have an aching knee, you should still listen this, because you're going to get one at some point. No, it's gonna happen. I mean, if you don't have an aching knee, you're not training, do you even do? Just give it five seconds, all right. So where did we leave off on my last update? We've been chronicling this, uh, on the inner circle right, and so those, those behind the paywall, understand what's going on. But just in, in a little brief summation, he went from nothing to what. All right, so had no issue with my knee ever.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Woke up one day during the holidays, actually, knee was a bit sore. Oh, that's odd. Knees a bit sore, no big deal. Enjoyed the holidays for a couple of days. Went to jiu-jitsu shortly after.

Speaker 1: 2:07

Came away from that session. Oh, fuck, my knees, definitely not quite right. Something's going on worse. That night swollen sore. Oh, man, you know. Yeah, there's something going on here. Got an mri eventually. Mri showed existing tears in the meniscus and the cartilage, but they were old tears, okay, which I was not aware of because the knee had always felt great. Now, that's not a hugely odd thing, right? If you train jiu-jitsu and you put a microscope on your knees. You're probably going to find some shit Wearing tear, but there was a small little extension tear on one of those old ones. It's pretty cool that they can see that too. Right, these tears are old, but this little bit here, this couple of millimeters, that's new, wow.

Speaker 1: 2:50

So, long story short, been doing some rehab since that time. Been doing some rehab for about four weeks, booked in with a surgeon. Hang on, you went and saw. Yes, I went and saw my guy Justin Lang. Right, justin Lang is the knee guy here in sydney. He's in, he's in the shire in caring bar. Is he a black belt now? Uh, no, purple or brown, I don't know if he's. I think he's the kind of guy he's always sort of doing some grappling, sure, but I don't know if he's engaging in the class, kind of. He's a j jujitsu guy, oh yeah, and he's a fucking handful. Yes, athletic guy, athletic he's. This guy trains all of the athletes Yep, football, like rugby league, rugby union, cats, afl, they're all there. Anyone that's rehabbing their knee like athletes, they go to him. He's Rob Whittaker's strength coach. He knows his shit and he helped me a lot with my acl rico many years ago.

Speaker 1: 3:48

But I went to see him and he said look man, let's like let's just get the swelling down and let's just let's just give the knee what it needs for a little while and see if we can, if this thing can just return to normal without surgery. But he said it's worth going to see the surgeon to get his his view on it. Um, so I went to see the surgeon, was very lucky I think Justin pulled some strings for me, got me in within like a couple of weeks. This guy, this surgeon, he's down that way as well. He's super busy. I called up and booked and they said, yeah, next available appointment's in like three months. So I took that. And then they called me back and said actually, we've had an opening for next Tuesday. I was like I'll fucking take it. Um, but joey's outside the clinic, just like killing people. Yeah, you can't make this appointment, buddy, sorry, old lady, hard for you to get your hip looked at when you're on the ground, um, but so, yeah. So I went in there and look, I had this.

Speaker 1: 4:39

The results from my mri showed that there was no, no flap of meniscus or anything like that that would be getting stuck in the joint. Good sign, but what I've been experiencing day to day is this catching sensation, and that's been. It's kind of shit because you sometimes you're walking around normally and then all of a sudden you just get this catch and you're like, oh fuck. And then you're like hobbling and then your knees sore and then you're like and so I'm using like voltaren gel and it's keep the swelling down. I'm like I'm not doing jitsu, I can't squat like there's a. You know.

Speaker 1: 5:12

It's affected things pretty significantly. I was doing some work on the ladder the other day at the fucking house and like just getting up and down the land like god damn, I look like my fucking dad right now. He's had double knee replacement anyway. Tough um I. So I'm thinking, all right, cool, yeah, there's probably something floating around in there.

Speaker 1: 5:30

They're probably going to want to do an arthroscopy, which is like keyhole surgery, where they go in, clean the shit out. And, of course, like I put this shit out on social media, bunch of people messaging in friends and followers of bulletproof whatnot saying oh man, like, oh man. Like one friend, diego, shout out was like bro, I had that Went and got the clean out. I was good in like 14 days best thing I ever did. I'm like, okay, sick like this would be awesome. And when you get that clean out, that arthroscopy, it's very short recovery because they're not the only trauma. Is them cutting your skin? Yeah Right, there's them cutting your skin? Yeah right, there's. No, they're not drilling shit. No, whatever. So I'm thinking that's the go.

Speaker 1: 6:09

Uh, went in, saw the surgeon. He brought the mri up, showed me the mri. Really cool was the first, was the first surgeon, doctor of person of that cloth, who could actually show me the mri and talk me through the different to show me what I'm looking at. Nice, yeah, which I find often they'll bring it up on the screen, but they're kind of moving so quick you're like I can't decipher what this image is showing me. Yeah, but he's like see that that's fluid, see that that's your cartilage, see that that's your meniscus. This is the healthy side. And he's that's the pain you're experiencing.

Speaker 1: 6:38

Uh, he said five years ago uh, we, I would have said, yeah, let's go in there and shave that off and then you're good. Uh, but he said, uh, the studies show us now that that's not the best approach. He said you're at six weeks. I'm going to suggest you just leave it. He said six to 12 months, it'll probably take care of itself. He said the latest studies show us that people who have the surgical intervention versus those who don't experience the exact same outcomes. Wow, yeah, he said. But the people who have the surgery will experience more issues down the track, cause you cause you know you're going to get a bit of arthritis and shit, cause you've now lost that bit of meniscus.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Um, he said but yeah, really, there's no, uh, there's no difference in the two approaches. So a surgeon advised you not to get surgery. Isn't that refreshing? That's fucking wild people. I think that's the first time I've ever heard that. He said you're at six weeks.

Speaker 1: 7:43

He said that's really early and that was interesting. He said this is really early, like this is still the acute phase. He said something like this will usually resolve itself within six to 12 months. But he said probably at three-month mark you'll be feeling very differently about it. And he said look, come back and see me in three months. Let's book it in. Here's a referral for an MRI for another one. And he said but you don't have to come, you can cancel that appointment if you want. And the MRI is free because he's like, when I refer it, it's covered by our medical system. Amazing, fucking incredible. But he's like, yeah, I think you'll feel very differently about it another six weeks from now.

Speaker 1: 8:24

And I was like man, that's amazing. And I'm like so what? Like, what's the? You know? What do you do now? Yeah, I'm like so. I said, wait, clarify this for me. I said so you're saying like I'm in pain right now, right, but you're saying, if you do the surgery, that the outcome for me is going to be the same. So is that just a case that the pain comes at a different time? Like I got pain. Now you do the surgery, I feel good, but if I do the surgery Further down the track, and he said actually no. He said that's what I thought when this science first started coming out. But he said no, no, it's all just the same. Like you just stay in pain and your knees sore. I guess that goes into, like this new pain science, which is like your pain is often not always connect, like it was originally connected, to the physical thing damage, but it remains even after the physical damage is gone. See, this is this is so interesting to me because I'll just sidestep slightly.

Speaker 1: 9:22

When I almost completely tore my hamstring off the bone a physio had said to me I went back in six months after the fact and it had healed and I'm like I'm still getting pain, it's still kind of tight. And the physio said well, how's your range of motion? I said, oh, no, range of motion is good. He's like no, that's just your nervous system, like because you were in pain for an extended period of time. It's kind of hardwired Like you might get pain there in 10 years' time. You might get oh like oh, have I done it again? He's like no, that's just a little, not a spasm, but it's a little like a muscle, like a memory, like a little message. Yeah, that's in there, but it doesn't mean that that area is still damaged. It's almost like a hangover, an echo of that. And I was like whoa, it's wild. Eh, yeah, but maybe that's protective. It's like your body saying hey, man, don't do that shit again. Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: 10:10

And so I said to him like, well, I'm guessing, like for the next couple months, like no, jiu-jitsu. And he said I think you can do what you want, just as long as it's not aggravating it. So he said just go, you know, get back into things, and if your knee blows up a bit. Then you know okay, don't do that, just takedowns. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no spider cuts, no spider car slices. Fucking saddle shootouts. 50, 50 shootouts. Let's just go 100 from south. Three, two, one go, you know, just go get movement. Yeah, um, so I, yeah. So I was really blown away by that.

Speaker 1: 10:44

The other thing he said I thought this was kind of fascinating. He said, um, he said what I would suggest is that you get on the bike bike. Bike's always good for knee stuff. And he said the bike's really good because you're just flexing and extending the knee for reps. And he said and over time, the hope is that your bones would just grind that little flap off, they'd just shear it off. And he's like and that's all we're doing in the surgery anyway, so if we give it time, your body would hopefully do that by itself. And he said what a lot of my patients have reported is that they have a catching moment that's like quite painful in the like for a second, and then the knee is good and he's like, usually that is, it's just sheared it off, and that's like ah, and then you're like, oh fuck, feels good, and then that's it, wow. And I was like, wow, dude, that's fucking dope. This is intriguing.

Speaker 1: 11:41

I've never heard any chat like this before. Yeah, isn't it? It's new shit. I mean, I, I can just. I just know that sorry telephone joe's twitter is blowing up right now. It's gordon ryan. I just listened to that last episode. What the fuck? Yeah, I know that.

Speaker 1: 11:59

You know even the surgeon that I saw who did my ACL, and I think he was great in many ways, but I can just picture that he would have been like, yeah, we can get in there and clean that up. That's the paradigm of the time, right, that's what was taught. But then then, even like, tim travail posted the thing about debunking the myth that you know, like the acl, uh, like you were talked about before, like the fixed leg rehab where, yeah, the racing protocol, yeah, he, he posted about how that proves that, like, because it was the, the old paradigm was well, you can't, you can't, uh, ligaments won't repair themselves, no, they won't reattach, yeah, but this proves that they can, yeah, and do, yeah, not everyone, but it can work that way. Yeah, it's awesome. So, yeah, I was so stoked with that and I was like, mate, you're a fucking legend. And I was like what? Like you know, because it is it I'm still using, like the anti-inflammatory gel and stuff. And he said, yeah, just keep use that. Like, if you need it, keep using it. If it gets real bad, take the tablet ones. You know. Whatever he's like, manage the pain, but give it time, right? And he didn't advocate for injecting gross hormones straight into your knee. I didn't. I was like peptides, no, but I figure I'll do a bit of my own research. Okay, do a bit of my own research. Okay, hey, gordon, what do I need for this? What's best for hulking knee recovery? Well, that's awesome and I think that that can actually give hope to a bunch of people out there who maybe might be in a similar situation not necessarily the same, but meniscus is one of those troublesome thing for most people where it's like if you've torn your meniscus, it's kind of like surgery in the past has felt inevitable.

Speaker 1: 13:37

Relevant to that, yeah, and I definitely, you know, thought that, yeah, I was like I told you. I'm like I think it's going to be surgery, bro, because yeah, you feel like it's this physical thing that's just not going to change. You're like it doesn't. Like you know, as we know, like meniscus doesn't really have blood flow so they don't like your body can't change them, they're just you get given meniscuses and that's it, yeah. And so once you tear it, it's torn. So you're like I think they're going to have to, you know, surgical intervention. But no, they're like, well, there's an intervention of sorts, but it's administered by your own body, right, and shave that shit off. It takes longer too, right? Yeah, and I tell you instantly I came in this morning to train and I had a really good training session.

Speaker 1: 14:20

It was an upper body session, mind you. But just because the surgeon had been like, no, you're good, give it time, don't worry about it, kind of thing, I was like, all right, been like it's all a bit of a drag, like hobbling into the gym and the training sessions yeah, I'm doing rehab stuff. I'm like, oh, this sucks. But it's amazing how just that conversation changed my outlook. Well, you learn right, he actually was able to. It wasn't just good advice, it was literally here's the problem, here's how we view it and here's how you should approach it. Like that, yeah, that's very clear, well-educated advice. So, yeah, that would definitely help eliminate the being in purgatory Like, fuck, what do we do about this? You know now, yeah, so that's cool.

Speaker 1: 15:10

But I'm thinking, even if he had said like, yeah, we need to do surgery and let's book it in for two months, I probably would have stayed in a bit of a funk, right, you know, because I've got a fucking knee that needs surgery. Man, my knee's fucked, kind of narrative. Yes, versus, now I'm like, well, my knee's injured but it's going to get better and it's just a waiting game. So, you know, like there's a real, there's a feeling of optimism there. Yeah, that's so good. I think that's really positive. Man, well, fucking stoked to hear it. Thanks.

Speaker 1: 15:37

And what is the eta now? Is it just a matter of how it feels? Yeah, it's just time, you know. So, look, I, I think, like for someone listening that might be having a similar sort of experience, you know, six to twelve months it's a long period of time.

Speaker 1: 15:54

If, if you're just into jiu-jitsu and it's like, fuck, you might, you know, take a few months off maybe. Maybe you have to take six months off, right, maybe your tear is bigger than mine and there's a bigger flap and it's quite painful, and yeah, like that, you know, it's still a real fucking kick in the nuts. In that way, it's not so much for me, because I just I'm not that obsessed about jujitsu anymore. Yes, that I'm like well, whatever, I can take a year off. Yeah, well, maybe it's just you just have a more balanced approach anyway.

Speaker 1: 16:21

Yeah, but if it, if it had been a blue belt or something you know, like when I was at like peak froth, yes, would have been like fuck, like, is it my best years man, your life? Yeah, in a way. So you know. So I think that you know also something you have to take into account. But yeah, like, largely, I'm like cool, great Part of the process. Let's learn some new shit. That's positive, man, glad to hear it. Thanks, dog. Now my friends, if you would like to share information like this with your jujitsu friends, the easiest way you can do it is to like, follow and subscribe. That's all you got to do. It's just a couple of seconds beep, bop, boop, and that means other good people like you get to see it, hear it, and they can share it too. Also, if you're listening on an audio platform, give us a five-star rating. We love it, appreciate y'all.