Avoiding Knee Surgery: Joey's Journey from Injury to Optimism

Episode 345: Have you ever torn your meniscus? Been told you must have surgery? Joey injured his knee while training BJJ- turns out it was a torn meniscus. He got an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scan, saw his physiotherapist and while the scan didn't reveal much new info he was advised to talk to a Knee surgeon. Joey was under the impression that Surgery was unavoidable- Can a torn Meniscus heal itself?? This discussion unpacks many of the expectations, misconceptions and new approaches to medical treatment for Jiu-Jitsu folks suffering from meniscus injuries. If you have had any surprising treatments that helped you overcome a knee injury let us know in the comments.

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Transcript

Limitless Power and Knee Rehabilitation

Speaker 1 0:03

you better listen very carefully . A good martial artist does not become tense , but ready . Essentially , at this point the fight is over , so you pretty much flow with the goal . Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power ? I'm ready .

Speaker 1 0:30

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Speaker 1 1:10

Have you got a sore knee ? Have you got a meniscus problem ? Have you had an aching knee and you don't know what's going on ? A good friend of mine has slash . Does Joseph Worthington please talk to me about your knee ? I love the way you open with that , talking to the peoples guys , if you don't have an aching knee , you should still listen this , because you're going to get one at some point . No , it's gonna happen . I mean , if you don't have an aching knee , you're not training , do you even do ? Just give it five seconds , all right . So where did we leave off on my last update ? We've been chronicling this , uh , on the inner circle right , and so those , those behind the paywall , understand what's going on . But just in , in a little brief summation , he went from nothing to what . All right , so had no issue with my knee ever .

Speaker 1 1:55

Woke up one day during the holidays , actually , knee was a bit sore . Oh , that's odd . Knees a bit sore , no big deal . Enjoyed the holidays for a couple of days . Went to jiu-jitsu shortly after .

Speaker 1 2:07

Came away from that session . Oh , fuck , my knees , definitely not quite right . Something's going on worse . That night swollen sore . Oh , man , you know . Yeah , there's something going on here . Got an mri eventually . Mri showed existing tears in the meniscus and the cartilage , but they were old tears , okay , which I was not aware of because the knee had always felt great . Now , that's not a hugely odd thing , right ? If you train jiu-jitsu and you put a microscope on your knees . You're probably going to find some shit Wearing tear , but there was a small little extension tear on one of those old ones . It's pretty cool that they can see that too . Right , these tears are old , but this little bit here , this couple of millimeters , that's new , wow .

Speaker 1 2:50

So , long story short , been doing some rehab since that time . Been doing some rehab for about four weeks , booked in with a surgeon . Hang on , you went and saw . Yes , I went and saw my guy Justin Lang . Right , justin Lang is the knee guy here in sydney . He's in , he's in the shire in caring bar . Is he a black belt now ? Uh , no , purple or brown , I don't know if he's . I think he's the kind of guy he's always sort of doing some grappling , sure , but I don't know if he's engaging in the class , kind of . He's a j jujitsu guy , oh yeah , and he's a fucking handful . Yes , athletic guy , athletic he's . This guy trains all of the athletes Yep , football , like rugby league , rugby union , cats , afl , they're all there . Anyone that's rehabbing their knee like athletes , they go to him . He's Rob Whittaker's strength coach . He knows his shit and he helped me a lot with my acl rico many years ago .

Speaker 1 3:48

But I went to see him and he said look man , let's like let's just get the swelling down and let's just let's just give the knee what it needs for a little while and see if we can , if this thing can just return to normal without surgery . But he said it's worth going to see the surgeon to get his his view on it . Um , so I went to see the surgeon , was very lucky I think Justin pulled some strings for me , got me in within like a couple of weeks . This guy , this surgeon , he's down that way as well . He's super busy . I called up and booked and they said , yeah , next available appointment's in like three months . So I took that . And then they called me back and said actually , we've had an opening for next Tuesday . I was like I'll fucking take it . Um , but joey's outside the clinic , just like killing people . Yeah , you can't make this appointment , buddy , sorry , old lady , hard for you to get your hip looked at when you're on the ground , um , but so , yeah . So I went in there and look , I had this .

Speaker 1 4:39

The results from my mri showed that there was no , no flap of meniscus or anything like that that would be getting stuck in the joint . Good sign , but what I've been experiencing day to day is this catching sensation , and that's been . It's kind of shit because you sometimes you're walking around normally and then all of a sudden you just get this catch and you're like , oh fuck . And then you're like hobbling and then your knees sore and then you're like and so I'm using like voltaren gel and it's keep the swelling down . I'm like I'm not doing jitsu , I can't squat like there's a . You know .

Speaker 1 5:12

It's affected things pretty significantly . I was doing some work on the ladder the other day at the fucking house and like just getting up and down the land like god damn , I look like my fucking dad right now . He's had double knee replacement anyway . Tough um I . So I'm thinking , all right , cool , yeah , there's probably something floating around in there .

Speaker 1 5:30

They're probably going to want to do an arthroscopy , which is like keyhole surgery , where they go in , clean the shit out . And , of course , like I put this shit out on social media , bunch of people messaging in friends and followers of bulletproof whatnot saying oh man , like , oh man . Like one friend , diego , shout out was like bro , I had that Went and got the clean out . I was good in like 14 days best thing I ever did . I'm like , okay , sick like this would be awesome . And when you get that clean out , that arthroscopy , it's very short recovery because they're not the only trauma . Is them cutting your skin ? Yeah Right , there's them cutting your skin ? Yeah right , there's . No , they're not drilling shit . No , whatever . So I'm thinking that's the go .

Speaker 1 6:09

Uh , went in , saw the surgeon . He brought the mri up , showed me the mri . Really cool was the first , was the first surgeon , doctor of person of that cloth , who could actually show me the mri and talk me through the different to show me what I'm looking at . Nice , yeah , which I find often they'll bring it up on the screen , but they're kind of moving so quick you're like I can't decipher what this image is showing me . Yeah , but he's like see that that's fluid , see that that's your cartilage , see that that's your meniscus . This is the healthy side . And he's that's the pain you're experiencing .

Speaker 1 6:38

Uh , he said five years ago uh , we , I would have said , yeah , let's go in there and shave that off and then you're good . Uh , but he said , uh , the studies show us now that that's not the best approach . He said you're at six weeks . I'm going to suggest you just leave it . He said six to 12 months , it'll probably take care of itself . He said the latest studies show us that people who have the surgical intervention versus those who don't experience the exact same outcomes . Wow , yeah , he said . But the people who have the surgery will experience more issues down the track , cause you cause you know you're going to get a bit of arthritis and shit , cause you've now lost that bit of meniscus .

Speaker 1 7:27

Um , he said but yeah , really , there's no , uh , there's no difference in the two approaches . So a surgeon advised you not to get surgery . Isn't that refreshing ? That's fucking wild people . I think that's the first time I've ever heard that . He said you're at six weeks .

Speaker 1 7:43

He said that's really early and that was interesting . He said this is really early , like this is still the acute phase . He said something like this will usually resolve itself within six to 12 months . But he said probably at three-month mark you'll be feeling very differently about it . And he said look , come back and see me in three months . Let's book it in . Here's a referral for an MRI for another one . And he said but you don't have to come , you can cancel that appointment if you want . And the MRI is free because he's like , when I refer it , it's covered by our medical system . Amazing , fucking incredible . But he's like , yeah , I think you'll feel very differently about it another six weeks from now .

Speaker 1 8:24

And I was like man , that's amazing . And I'm like so what ? Like , what's the ? You know ? What do you do now ? Yeah , I'm like so . I said , wait , clarify this for me . I said so you're saying like I'm in pain right now , right , but you're saying , if you do the surgery , that the outcome for me is going to be the same . So is that just a case that the pain comes at a different time ? Like I got pain . Now you do the surgery , I feel good , but if I do the surgery Further down the track , and he said actually no . He said that's what I thought when this science first started coming out . But he said no , no , it's all just the same . Like you just stay in pain and your knees sore . I guess that goes into , like this new pain science , which is like your pain is often not always connect , like it was originally connected , to the physical thing damage , but it remains even after the physical damage is gone . See , this is this is so interesting to me because I'll just sidestep slightly .

Speaker 1 9:22

When I almost completely tore my hamstring off the bone a physio had said to me I went back in six months after the fact and it had healed and I'm like I'm still getting pain , it's still kind of tight . And the physio said well , how's your range of motion ? I said , oh , no , range of motion is good . He's like no , that's just your nervous system , like because you were in pain for an extended period of time . It's kind of hardwired Like you might get pain there in 10 years' time . You might get oh like oh , have I done it again ? He's like no , that's just a little , not a spasm , but it's a little like a muscle , like a memory , like a little message . Yeah , that's in there , but it doesn't mean that that area is still damaged . It's almost like a hangover , an echo of that . And I was like whoa , it's wild . Eh , yeah , but maybe that's protective . It's like your body saying hey , man , don't do that shit again . Yeah , wow .

Speaker 1 10:10

And so I said to him like , well , I'm guessing , like for the next couple months , like no , jiu-jitsu . And he said I think you can do what you want , just as long as it's not aggravating it . So he said just go , you know , get back into things , and if your knee blows up a bit . Then you know okay , don't do that , just takedowns . Yeah , that's right . Yeah , no spider cuts , no spider car slices . Fucking saddle shootouts . 50 , 50 shootouts . Let's just go 100 from south . Three , two , one go , you know , just go get movement . Yeah , um , so I , yeah . So I was really blown away by that .

Speaker 1 10:44

The other thing he said I thought this was kind of fascinating . He said , um , he said what I would suggest is that you get on the bike bike . Bike's always good for knee stuff . And he said the bike's really good because you're just flexing and extending the knee for reps . And he said and over time , the hope is that your bones would just grind that little flap off , they'd just shear it off . And he's like and that's all we're doing in the surgery anyway , so if we give it time , your body would hopefully do that by itself . And he said what a lot of my patients have reported is that they have a catching moment that's like quite painful in the like for a second , and then the knee is good and he's like , usually that is , it's just sheared it off , and that's like ah , and then you're like , oh fuck , feels good , and then that's it , wow . And I was like , wow , dude , that's fucking dope . This is intriguing .

Speaker 1 11:41

I've never heard any chat like this before . Yeah , isn't it ? It's new shit . I mean , I , I can just . I just know that sorry telephone joe's twitter is blowing up right now . It's gordon ryan . I just listened to that last episode . What the fuck ? Yeah , I know that .

Speaker 1 11:59

You know even the surgeon that I saw who did my ACL , and I think he was great in many ways , but I can just picture that he would have been like , yeah , we can get in there and clean that up . That's the paradigm of the time , right , that's what was taught . But then then , even like , tim travail posted the thing about debunking the myth that you know , like the acl , uh , like you were talked about before , like the fixed leg rehab where , yeah , the racing protocol , yeah , he , he posted about how that proves that , like , because it was the , the old paradigm was well , you can't , you can't , uh , ligaments won't repair themselves , no , they won't reattach , yeah , but this proves that they can , yeah , and do , yeah , not everyone , but it can work that way . Yeah , it's awesome . So , yeah , I was so stoked with that and I was like , mate , you're a fucking legend . And I was like what ? Like you know , because it is it I'm still using , like the anti-inflammatory gel and stuff . And he said , yeah , just keep use that . Like , if you need it , keep using it . If it gets real bad , take the tablet ones . You know . Whatever he's like , manage the pain , but give it time , right ? And he didn't advocate for injecting gross hormones straight into your knee . I didn't . I was like peptides , no , but I figure I'll do a bit of my own research . Okay , do a bit of my own research . Okay , hey , gordon , what do I need for this ? What's best for hulking knee recovery ? Well , that's awesome and I think that that can actually give hope to a bunch of people out there who maybe might be in a similar situation not necessarily the same , but meniscus is one of those troublesome thing for most people where it's like if you've torn your meniscus , it's kind of like surgery in the past has felt

Optimism Through Knee Rehabilitation

Speaker 1 13:37

inevitable .

Speaker 1 13:37

Relevant to that , yeah , and I definitely , you know , thought that , yeah , I was like I told you . I'm like I think it's going to be surgery , bro , because yeah , you feel like it's this physical thing that's just not going to change . You're like it doesn't . Like you know , as we know , like meniscus doesn't really have blood flow so they don't like your body can't change them , they're just you get given meniscuses and that's it , yeah . And so once you tear it , it's torn . So you're like I think they're going to have to , you know , surgical intervention . But no , they're like , well , there's an intervention of sorts , but it's administered by your own body , right , and shave that shit off . It takes longer too , right ? Yeah , and I tell you instantly I came in this morning to train and I had a really good training session .

Speaker 1 14:20

It was an upper body session , mind you . But just because the surgeon had been like , no , you're good , give it time , don't worry about it , kind of thing , I was like , all right , been like it's all a bit of a drag , like hobbling into the gym and the training sessions yeah , I'm doing rehab stuff . I'm like , oh , this sucks . But it's amazing how just that conversation changed my outlook . Well , you learn right , he actually was able to . It wasn't just good advice , it was literally here's the problem , here's how we view it and here's how you should approach it . Like that , yeah , that's very clear , well-educated advice . So , yeah , that would definitely help eliminate the being in purgatory Like , fuck , what do we do about this ? You know now , yeah , so that's cool .

Speaker 1 15:10

But I'm thinking , even if he had said like , yeah , we need to do surgery and let's book it in for two months , I probably would have stayed in a bit of a funk , right , you know , because I've got a fucking knee that needs surgery . Man , my knee's fucked , kind of narrative . Yes , versus , now I'm like , well , my knee's injured but it's going to get better and it's just a waiting game . So , you know , like there's a real , there's a feeling of optimism there . Yeah , that's so good . I think that's really positive . Man , well , fucking stoked to hear it . Thanks .

Speaker 1 15:37

And what is the eta now ? Is it just a matter of how it feels ? Yeah , it's just time , you know . So , look , I , I think , like for someone listening that might be having a similar sort of experience , you know , six to twelve months it's a long period of time .

Speaker 1 15:54

If , if you're just into jiu-jitsu and it's like , fuck , you might , you know , take a few months off maybe . Maybe you have to take six months off , right , maybe your tear is bigger than mine and there's a bigger flap and it's quite painful , and yeah , like that , you know , it's still a real fucking kick in the nuts . In that way , it's not so much for me , because I just I'm not that obsessed about jujitsu anymore . Yes , that I'm like well , whatever , I can take a year off . Yeah , well , maybe it's just you just have a more balanced approach anyway .

Speaker 1 16:21

Yeah , but if it , if it had been a blue belt or something you know , like when I was at like peak froth , yes , would have been like fuck , like , is it my best years man , your life ? Yeah , in a way . So you know . So I think that you know also something you have to take into account . But yeah , like , largely , I'm like cool , great Part of the process . Let's learn some new shit . That's positive , man , glad to hear it . Thanks , dog . Now my friends , if you would like to share information like this with your jujitsu friends , the easiest way you can do it is to like , follow and subscribe . That's all you got to do . It's just a couple of seconds beep , bop , boop , and that means other good people like you get to see it , hear it , and they can share it too . Also , if you're listening on an audio platform , give us a five-star rating . We love it , appreciate y'all .