Bulletproof For BJJ Podcast
Discussions on improving your BJJ, navigating mat-politics and all aspects of the jiu jitsu lifestyle. Multiple weekly episodes for grapplers of any level. Hosted by JT and Joey - Australian jiu jitsu black belts, strength coaches, and creators of Bulletproof For BJJ App. Based out of Sydney, Australia
Bulletproof For BJJ Podcast
The TRUTH About Training With A Timer In BJJ
Is training 5 or 6 minute rounds killing your jiu jitsu progress? Using a round timer is common-place in jiu jitsu gyms around the world. But what if this practice is holding your jiu jitsu back? 10,15 or 20 minute rounds sound very daunting, but you might be surprised about how you approach these rounds and how they could skyrocket your BJJ progress.
A good martial artist does not become tense, but ready. Essentially, at this point the fight is over, so you pretty much flow with the goal. Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power? I'm ready. Training with a timer is limiting your jiu-jitsu. It's holding you back, folks. It is a staple of the jiu-jitsu academy. You've got the timer on the wall. Beep, beep, set the round timer, round goes. Okay, guys, new training partner. Actually, having the timer is not helping your Jiu-Jitsu, if anything, it's limiting it. And I want to talk about it because no one's talking about it.
Speaker 1:So this was actually raised more recently and has been talked about before by John Danaher. Now there's plenty of stuff that Danaher says I don't agree with. He's a very smart guy and actually Craig Jones had talked about how John Danaher will determine when the round ends. There's no timer and he'll just go. Okay, guys, stop Like okay, end of round. But you're just Really, yeah, you're just working, you're just working and obviously he works with some very advanced athletes. I did hear him talk about that actually, and this may not necessarily be practical. If you run a gym, you're a coach, you're running a gym, you've only got a certain amount of time where you've got to fit in your class structure. So I understand why the round timer is used from a practical perspective, is used from a practical perspective.
Speaker 1:But more recently, what was brought up by John Dana, who was talking about the most recent match between Nicky Rod and Kynan Duarte and also Luke Griffiths beating Victor Hugo and this was only as a result Was that on the same card? Yeah, fuck, he beat Victor Hugo, shit how. But earlier in the match he had his back. I don't remember if he finished it, mate, he had the Fuck, there's some wild swings going on at the moment, isn't there, dude? Yeah, because Victor Hugo came off the back of Of beating Nicky Rod, that's right. Yeah, fuck Right. And Olivares beat Luke Griffith in that ADCC. Yeah, sorry, go on, yeah. So here is the interesting thing about this Earlier, in those matches, both the athletes that won were losing, technically, right, like Kynan was up and also Victor Hugo was up. But as the match wore on, the kind of the jiu-jitsu prevailed and the tide turned. So those guys who maybe they're better at doing shorter matches like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, like John's post directly said that 15 to 20 minute matches are better in terms of showing who has the better technique. That's his take. Now, obviously it was his student and previous student who prevailed, so kind of it's a confirmation bias.
Speaker 1:But there is something to this when you think, oh, I'm good for five minutes. But how often do you have it where you're rolling and you catch your partner like doing the cheeky little clock check, they sweep you and then they just do a little where are we? Oh, there's only a minute to go, I'll just hold this guy down. And you only know they're doing that because that's what you do. You also do it. You're like I just passed, just hold him down. And it does change the way in which you are engaging. If that's how you've been conditioned to roll, it very much enters your psyche that, oh, this is a five minute round, I'm used to this, I'll go a bit harder. Or oh, it's a 10 minute round, I'll I'll pace myself. What if there was no clock? It's different jujitsu, you know.
Speaker 1:I remember um shout out to my old training buddy, bean oh, yes, the second strongest man in jujitsu. And he, and he said to me, to me he was like bro, have you ever done like 20 minute rounds? And I said, and I was like no, I haven't what. And he's like, fuck, they're really good. Like I did some the other day at some gym, or he's like we should do it sometime. And I just remember being like super intimidated by that. I was like, bro, I fucking barely survived five minutes with you, like I don't want to. I fucking barely survived five minutes with you, like I don't want to fucking do 20. But he's like no, bro, it's totally different. Like you slow it down and you know cause you're more, you're preserving energy. And I was like, oh wow, and then I think we did it or whatever.
Speaker 1:But it's a fundamentally different way to do jujitsu. Right, because you can't, you can't go balls to the wall for two minutes and then fucking ride out the next three minutes, until the end of the round, possibly. But when there's 20 minutes on that clock, you have to change how you approach it. And there's an interesting thing here, because I know there'll be plenty of people who push back on this, and that's fair enough, but we've got to consider doing things differently. Will there be? Who's going to push back? No, plenty of people, I'm sure, because there is value in Like even you know, like time in and of itself is a variable, it's a constraint, right, it's different jujitsu.
Speaker 1:Holy, are you saying what I think you're saying? I was just. I was just misappropriating a quote. We've been doing ecological this whole time. I think that's great, just reaching. But yeah, shout out, greg and I just become best friends. I think you did You're bros now. No, it's. It's interesting because, like even within um weight, uh, weight training, if you reduce rest time, it becomes a different workout. Yeah, if you give more rest time, it's, yeah, it's a different experience. You're training kind of different qualities by doing that, and I think there is definitely something to also how long you rest between rounds in terms of the quality of the round. But if we took time out of it entirely, your jiu-jitsu does change. You do need far more efficient jiu-jitsu.
Speaker 1:Now plenty of people could say, oh, boring, like there have been some tragically long matches in jiu-jitsu and the quality doesn't go up. There is a. There is a point where it should just be tapped out for both. It gets sloppy. Yeah, I remember not that this match was particularly sloppy. It was keenan cornelius I can't remember the year versus gordon ryan. This is before gordon became ultimate champion, ascending and gordon finishes keenan with an inside heel hook.
Speaker 1:It was at a grappling industries and actually ben hodgkinson was reffing the match. Oh, wow, I asked him about it. He was like it was so tiring man to be the ref. Wow, how long was it? 47 minutes, 48 minutes. He's like bro, I was like. He was just like I was like falling asleep. He's like it's hard. Guys so technical, back and forth, escaping back and forth, and it is hard to stay in it as a spectator but I believe as a grappler it brings something different out of you.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned the Isaac. There was Isaac Michelle on that. What was that show? It was like a reality show. Yeah, they were doing like a. It was like who's number one, but like who's next? Yeah, they were doing like a who's number one, but like who's next, who's next? That's what it was. Yeah, yeah, and it was cool because I think the Tacketts were on that, yeah. So Isaac Michelle had some epic match With Kyle Chambers, kyle Chambers, and it went over two hours, fucking hell. And they had to move them from the main stage While they brought on. I think it was Tackett and Dan Manasoi or some shit. Oh my God, I mean two hours. That's just Some of the most grueling jiu-jitsu ever. Yeah, I mean, that's just fucked. Yeah, dude, I saw Joel Costello one of the first subversions here in Sydney at Sammy's gym Okay, at the back, they did one of the first subversions there and Joel deadline fight I can't remember who he was going against and uh, they did 20 minutes or whatever and there was no points and so they're like 10 minute overtime.
Speaker 1:And then they got through that and they're like take a rest. And they're like 10 minute overtime. And he was like I thought there was only one overtime round. They're like no, we just decided we'll just keep doing overtime rounds. And at some point his, his competitive diet of fucking bongs and energy drinks, some point his, his competitive diet of fucking bongs and energy drinks was not serving him in the best way possible and but it came down to I can't even remember what it came down to, but it was just it wasn't good for anyone. Yes, like you said, the spectators weren't having fun.
Speaker 1:The jiu-jitsu that was on display was abysmal. Yes, it's just two tired guys, you know, flopping on each other, yeah, and so you're like all right. They're like, wow, something different does happen when you draw it out. If you draw it out to the absolute end. In a competition sense, it's not necessarily great. Do not miss your opportunity to get your hands on a Bulletproof for BJJ t-shirt as a fan listener of the show. You can rep it. All you got to do is go to fanwearcomau, search for the Bulletproof for BJJ page and you're going to find these bad boys in a nice mid-weight cotton which is good for summer, good for winter, looks good all the time in a variety of different colors. Go to fanwearcomau now and order yours.
Speaker 1:But I was going to say here is something that I have found interesting. I believe it maybe it was dominance in melbourne. Uh, the dominance hq gym did a submission only tournament and it was probably similar to a grappling industries where they were like, uh, like a novice category and an advanced category and like it wasn't based on belts. It was kind of like how long have you trained? Do you think you can do leg locks? Maybe not submission, submission only.
Speaker 1:The matches actually finished themselves up. They only had a couple of matches that went quite long, like, in the name of people, just getting after it and going for the submission. The match was done inside of five, 10 minutes. Right, If that makes sense. So I do believe that when you not only remove time but you remove the idea of points that if it's just going for the submission it doesn't mean the match goes forever. No, that's true. Sub only kind of does imply well, sub only is like go hard to get the finish and you'll be rewarded.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like, whereas in a point scenario maybe we lean into oh well, I don't want to make a mistake so I'll just play it safe not to give up the points, yeah, and then that ends up in a stalemate kind of match. Yeah, and, and look, you know many people have critiqued the ebi overtime and like starting in certain positions. But I think the advantage at least, or the good the upside on an EBI overtime is there's a decisive outcome in terms of once the match has gone to a certain point, either someone's going to get submitted or someone's going to get out, and this is going to determine the winner. Yeah, and so from an entertainment perspective, there's that. But if we're talking about improving your jujitsu and you've only ever done five minute rounds, 10 minutes is going to feel like a world of hurt. Yeah, like it's very challenging and you probably look at that. You probably look at like advanced class or whatever, doing 10 minutes, and you're like, oh my God, I could never do that. Right, you totally can, by the way you can. And then because you develop a different cadence, you approach your jiu-jitsu differently, and then also because I had this experience before where I thought the timer was still going. It was kind of it was the option of like the class had finished, but you can keep rolling if you want, and the last bell I heard was, I thought, the start of the next round. Right, it wasn't, it was the end.
Speaker 1:And so me and a good friend I won't mention his name, but he's a weapon, he's a judo background guy, but just a tough, tough gay motherfucker, and he and I have a bit of a history of going hard. It's probably similar to you and Bean. We've always rolled each other hard and dude. We were rolling and we were rolling really hard, and then neither of us wanted to give up. But I think we both got a point in the roll where we're like, fuck the round, the round's got to end soon, but we just kept rolling and rolling and we'd get more exhausted, but like neither of us wanted to give up on, like you know, they say ego is bad. But we're like, no, I don't want to give this person the satisfaction of giving up. And then we both got to a point where we scrambled, he came up, he half took me down, I come up on his leg and we're both just like.
Speaker 1:We both looked at the clock and the clock was just blank. Okay, we're like there's no, there's no timer, and like there's like hardly anyone left on the mat and we're just like how long have we been rolling? We didn't even know like it. Just it just became endless. And maybe we didn't actually even roll that long. It felt like an hour. It's probably more like 15 minutes. But what was so interesting was, because we thought there was a timer, we went probably harder than we could sustain. Right, if we'd both agreed there's no timer and we'll finish this when there's a submission or we'll finish when we're finished, it would have been different. But we absolutely fucking cooked each other, thinking that the bell would save us. It's coming, yeah, and the bell cannot fucking save you.
Speaker 1:And I think this is actually an important lesson to take from that whole danaher post is you roll differently when you're thinking of the clock compared to when you know it's not there. Yeah, you're not reliant on it at all, no, and and having that as a not having it as a factor, I believe, adds a different dimension to your jujitsu. I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying it is worth exploring to, to to have it. It wouldn't even have to be once a week, like maybe you just factor it in once a fort, once a fortnight, once a once a month where you do I'm going to do a couple of rounds without a clock and maybe we just do it for submission or we just roll to a fucking cooked. Yeah, I was just thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I'd love to offer it in some of my classes and I was thinking like the tough part as a coach is you've got a class, you've got a bunch of people paired up and there's often not the pairings aren't excellent, right so there's always going to be someone that's paired with, like the new guy or whatever, and so having the shorter rounds where you're doing more of them allows everyone to kind of get what they need More exposure. But it would make sense that you could go like hey, after today's class, I'm going to put the clock on for 20 minutes and if you want, once class finished, you can just choose a partner that you want to roll with and do a 20 minute round. You know that'd be sick actually. Yeah, yeah, and I think there is a liberation in that as much as having a time limit can force you to push the action, and there's value in that removing it also could make you a bit freer maybe and less urgent in your jiu-jitsu.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I think we always talk about skill exposure, whether it's lifting or jujitsu rolling longer it does kind of put a focus on how efficient are you. Are you wasting energy doing certain things Because you might be able to keep it up for five minutes but you can't do it for 20. Yeah, that sort of pacing or energy management thing is. You're probably not really getting much exposure to that as a training mode in a five minute role, no, whereas when you go, yeah, 10, 15, 20, that becomes like a really pivotal piece of the puzzle. You're like, oh shit, I'm going a bit too hard. I need to back it off so that you know that's a. That's a valuable thing for anyone to experience. I think about.
Speaker 1:Here in the gym we do it right. We do some conditioning workouts that are short and sharp, where it's like sprint and then you do some that are like 20, 25, 30 minutes. It's a very different approach, yeah, and I think that there is different qualities, trained physically as well as mentally. So as much as a submission only short round kind of, is really compelling you to do the thing, get it done. That longer round is both you and your partner know that if you come out too hard too soon, you probably gas yourself and then you're getting done.
Speaker 1:And my only slightly different take to Danaher is Danaher believes it's better jujitsu in longer rounds. He believes the person with the better technique prevails. Only slightly different take to Danaher's Danaher believes it's better jujitsu in longer rounds. He believes the person with the better technique prevails. I just think it's different jujitsu. That's my take. I don't think it's better, I think you just roll differently.
Speaker 1:But if more people were to do that earlier in their jujitsu life at white and blue belt, I think it would actually make them a better grappler. I think that when you're a white belt obviously you don't have a lot of specific fitness, so a five minute round already feels fucking long. You're like fuck, how do I roll for 10 or more minutes. But it takes the over gripping and the spazziness and all of that away from you because you're like, oh, I can't do this, I am going to have to pace myself. And maybe that brings in a degree of maturity is the wrong word, I don't know. It brings in a level of experience that usually only higher level grapplers are exposed to and that if you got exposed to it when you're a white belt, then maybe that would improve your jujitsu more or diversify it. That's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:There it is, folks. The time limit is limiting you, so if you want to get better at jiu-jitsu, it could be worth taking that timer off Now. We appreciate you being here, thank you for staying all the way to the end and if you got this far, we give you the love. We appreciate the love to be returned. Give us a like. Give us a like, give us a subscribe. It means a lot to us and it goes a long way to get more good stuff like this to more good people like you.
