Bulletproof For BJJ Podcast
Discussions on improving your BJJ, navigating mat-politics and all aspects of the jiu jitsu lifestyle. Multiple weekly episodes for grapplers of any level. Hosted by JT and Joey - Australian jiu jitsu black belts, strength coaches, and creators of Bulletproof For BJJ App. Based out of Sydney, Australia
Bulletproof For BJJ Podcast
Open Mats Are The Best Way To Learn Jiu Jitsu
Do you feel like you gain more from going in and rolling or having class structure? Everybody loves an open mat: hard rounds, mat chats, messing around, meeting new people. But could structured classes be necessary to your jiu jitsu progression? We believe ultimately a mix of both is what will lead you down the best path...
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A good martial artist does not become tense but ready. Essentially, at this point the fight is over, so you pretty much flow with the goal. Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power?
Speaker 2:I'm ready.
Speaker 1:Open mat versus structured class what is the best structure for learning BJJ? Now, this is a hotly debated topic in terms of people love open mats and some people just go to open mats. They just avoid structured class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think some folks despise class formats. It's holding me back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the thing or the common protest is hey, every time I go to class it's just some new shit, like there's not a lot of structure here. Even though you might learn some stuff there, I never get to do the stuff I want. That's why I love me an open mat. Now there's folks out there who swear by the structured class. Whether you prefer an ecological approach or you know drilling or whatever you're into, people love the structured class and then they feel like an open mat's a waste of time because it's just whatever you know, generally just defaults into roles and wars and I mean, I think everyone can appreciate an open mat and maybe not a waste of time, but it's not as it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not the process by which you learn the most jiu-jitsu potentially.
Speaker 1:But I mean, it's maybe like free play at school, you know. It's like ah, just kids, go do what you want, yeah you know the teacher when you go to soccer practice.
Speaker 2:They're like we're just gonna have a game, game, yeah, fuck, yeah, it's like the um the teacher didn't bring a lesson plan.
Speaker 1:It's like at the end of the end of the year and they're like, we'll just put on a video yeah, you guys watch behind the news before just like y'all like home Alone.
Speaker 1:Sure, put it in Christmas time, am I right? But it's a funny thing because this has been brought up a number of times where people are like, oh, what do you boys think what's better? And I'm like all right, let's have this chat, let's unpack this class. Depending on which gym you train at will vary and depending on your level, like where you're starting this, whether you be a white belt, a blue belt or you're a seasoned black belt, it will be different for how you experience the structured class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we should identify two realities of jujitsu in the current day which are relevant to this debate, if you will, and the first is that the typical jujitsu in the current day which are relevant to this debate, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the first is that the typical jujitsu student really has changed quite a lot from what it was when we would say blue-purple belts. Sure, the typical jujitsu student and I'm not saying like the total beginner, but the person that's like blue or purple, really quite into it and seemingly probably going to go all the way until, you know, to the elite level, let's say, self-learning and study is huge now, much bigger. Never used to be right. Sure, some people maybe did, but it wasn't this thing that you see today, where it's like buying instructionals and what's Gordon doing and YouTube channels, all that, yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2:So the self-learning thing is really huge, which means that a lot of students probably don't rely on the academy to learn all of their jujitsu. I said that like a total monk in the way that jujitsu in the, in the way that we did right, or the way that people you know 15 years ago did. The other side of that is that the other truth I think is important to mention is that a lot of gyms do just teach randomized fucking techniques. Sure, they pick it out of a hat every day of the week and it's like what are we actually learning here?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know you can, you go through, you go for three days and you learn three different techniques that are all like not related yeah. And you got to drill them for like 15 minutes and then you just did some rolls and you didn't even use those techniques anyway, and you can't even remember what you did last week, potentially, yeah. So I think both of those things are really important to mention, so you know, with that in mind, who do you think like who would be saying that an open mat is the superior way to learn?
Speaker 1:I would say a younger person who is clearly very motivated. They've picked the game. They're, they're you know they're. They're doing the flipped classroom, like lochlan giles talks about it, where you go home you work on your game and you come to class to execute the flipped classroom model. You're not actually using the class to learn. I mean, you're using it to learn in real time.
Speaker 2:He recognized this is where it's going. Well, this is what he does At his level, like at the level that I'm coaching at and the kind of students I'm trying to create.
Speaker 1:I don't know where he got it from, like maybe it was like something to do with university or whatever. But that's what submeta is all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You go home, you do the study and then you come to class with a plan Practice. But if you've got something you want to work on, like as a drill or whatever you can elect to do, that, which is pretty interesting, because so there's two component parts to this, I believe, or two major demographics. You've got someone who's like a younger, self-motivated learner who either is like studying up for a game or they just want to bang. They're like I just enjoy rolling. I don't give a fuck about cross chokes, I'm just trying to do my thing.
Speaker 1:But then the other side of that, when we can go to someone who wants structure and wants guidance, we're looking at more like the older guy or gal who's like man my life is so busy I haven't got time to fucking study jujitsu. I'm here Tell me what the fuck to do. I got kids, I got all this noise. If you don't give me structure, I'm not learning shit. And so, therefore, they want to come in, they want to be told what to do. This is how you do it, just the right amount of rolling, and that actually really suits them, because they do not have the bandwidth to be doing all that extra shit, and they also don't want it to get too wild.
Speaker 1:I think there is actually a value in a structured class that you can, you know you can get a bout of intensity, but it's not. It's not just this open playing field of, like fucking endless roles. You know, you know you're only going to get about three, maximum four roles in. You're going to learn a bit of jiu-jitsu and that's the right dose of intensity for you as a grown-ass man with grown-ass woman with responsibilities yeah, I, um, would you, would you do you see that I'd agree with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, kind of two archetypes in a way yeah and yeah, I totally do.
Speaker 2:And I think that, um, like, if I'm thinking about how the modern academy should, should be facilitating, you know, like the the education of its students, I think, like, what lucky does, there is fucking a class, because it's like I'm opening this up for you to choose your own adventure, yeah, but I'm also teaching something. So, if you're not that person, if you're not that archetype, just listen to me. Yeah, but in that way, I think that the other layer is having a cohesive curriculum. Yes, and it doesn't mean to say that, like he's got 12 months of training mapped out, but it's just like I'm gonna teach you something that's related to what we did last week and we're gonna stick with this for a while, and then I'm gonna teach you something else that's related to this. So it's like it there's some kind of sequencing to it. Versus yesterday we were inverting, tonight we're defending the kimura, sure, uh, tomorrow's heel hooks, yep, you know, um, I think that, like, I think that that really should be.
Speaker 1:If you think about an educator, right, like a coach, I think that that is bare minimum, that they would have some kind of overview of what am I teaching you over the week's months, and I think for many of the kind of bigger chain or bigger franchise models of jujitsu they do have that Like syllabus is an important part of it, because people who are drawn to maybe a more conventional we might say jujitsu school or academy format, they want the structure, they want the path. What are we doing next week, coach, Like how many times do I need to drill this? Whereas for someone who's maybe a little bit different or got their own kind of projects in mind, they don't want to be told, they just want to fucking work on their shit, be in their own process and do that. So I actually feel that it's like many things we talk about either, or I think there is a sweet spot in the middle somewhere. Wow.
Speaker 2:Imagine Wow, it's not black and white.
Speaker 1:Fuck God I wish it could be that simple.
Speaker 2:Conceptually my brain cannot comprehend this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's challenging here, folks, because, similar to anything you choose at the early stages of your jiu-jitsu, you may need a lot of guidance. But once you've hit a certain level of proficiency and I'm not even just saying the gap from white belt to blue belt, I'm saying if you've been on white belt for 18 months, two years, say and you're really close to being a blue belt, you're pretty, you're probably across what you need to know to be a really good white belt. So spending more time experimenting might be the thing that helps you get to that blue belt level, say. Same thing like if you're a really new blue belt and suddenly you're getting way more technical demands and shit's way harder, you might need a lot more guidance. So I think it is. There's a cadence of when you need a bunch more instruction and structure and then there's times when you need to kind of fuck around and find out. That's how I see it could fit.
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Speaker 2:Go to the app store, search Bulletproof for BJJ and we'll see you on the inside. Yeah, I think maybe a bit of the curse of the open mat thing is like it's super fun to go to an open mat, isn't it? Like it's so much fun. You know you've got all these like new characters?
Speaker 1:Hang out chat roll.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and new faces, new games, new dilemmas, and I think that's super exciting, right, and it can be really addictive to just want to do it.
Speaker 2:It's like when you go to soccer practice and let's just play the game. It's fucking fun for everyone and it'll keep them coming back. But it's not actually taking isolated pieces of everyone's game and working on that and developing it so that the whole can be stronger or more cohesive. And so I think that the curse of that is if you are in that sort of routine of like I just like, go and bang, like and I and I show up at different I've got like three or four academies that I go to, and I go to this one on this night and you know I'm just fucking rolling hard. It might be really good for maybe, maybe, your ego, it might be really good for your game for a certain period of time, but it is not a solution to learning, not for development, no, and I think that's where having a coach right, like a good coach, someone that's got an eye on you and an eye over your entire approach to the thing, is the most valuable resource you can have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the freedom of open mat it's a beautiful thing, but the lack of feedback is is such a gaping weakness Like, yeah, yeah, I mean, unless your coach is there and they see you roll and they can you know. I think there is the possibility of feedback, because I would sometimes the cool thing about not having a formal class you can just ignore the timer and you and me can jam out about something so undisciplined and it's so whatever. Like it could also just not. Like it could just be that you could just be playing your a game every time and that will get you so far, up until the point that fucking doesn't, and then you're like shit, I need to learn some new shit. How do I do that? Yeah, maybe a little bit of structure you know.
Speaker 2:It does make me think too, that there's there's a difference in open mats, and I'm thinking like sometimes you might have like a, like your gym might do an open mat every week. Say, it's saturday morning, open mat, classic, and it's pretty much the same people that are there. That's a very different open mat to the christmas holidays open mat at some mega gym nearby where you got 50 cunts showing up, oh my god, from all over the city and it's like fuck, who's here today? You haven't, you know and you're and you're rolling with all these strangers. Yep, that's very different, isn't it? Because if you're going to your own format and you're training with mostly your training partners, people you know, then you are following, there's some kind of consistency to you know and you can apply oh fuck, so and so always gets me with this. Today I'm gonna try working this way instead, but when you're rolling with someone new, no such strategy applies. It's like let's just fucking have a go and see where we end up.
Speaker 1:Dude, I went to the fucking open mat at berserker's gym in poland, so I was like bro it is one of the.
Speaker 1:It is I think it's the best mma team in in poland. Right and now poland has like a really good pedigree, pedigree for grappling and uh jujitsu. You know they've got some really you some really up and coming submission grapplers out of that country. Now I didn't realize this gym is like 15 minutes from my wife's house. I was staying there and I was like, fuck, I need to roll. I haven't rolled for a couple of weeks. Then I found the gym and I met the famous Buggy Buginsky. He's the king of that gym. He's lovely, he's super friendly, tough, tough role.
Speaker 1:And I went to a structured class and it was fine. And he said, oh, you should come for our open mat on Saturday and I was like, oh great, he's like, yeah, we get a lot of people showing up. It's like gi, no gi, it's a lot of fun. Two hours of 10-minute rounds with one-minute break. Oh, wow, bro, it wasn't a fucking open mat, it was a murder fest of comp rounds. But for them that's like this is open mat. And I'm like two hours, bro, 12 times 10 minute rounds. Wow, oh bro. Third round, I was fucking cooked. I was in survival mode for the whole shit. Like I was like this is is not like, cause no one sits out. Yeah, like it's like everyone partners up.
Speaker 1:It's only if the numbers are uneven that someone is like off, and if they're off the mat they're like skipping and sprawling. And I was like this ain't no fucking open mat Like you fucking tricked me. But, bro, it was. It was an eye opener, oh God Fuck.
Speaker 2:So the oh fuck.
Speaker 1:So the guy messaged the competition team and was like guys, he's coming, but no, they know, because as soon as you walk in they're like oh, who's the fucking new guy?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I got beelined straight away by, like the European champion Pavel. He came up to me and he was like you and me, next round, go Okay. And then you know Polish Randy Couture. He was like oh hey, how are you? He was like Muay Thai shorts, like you know, in a fight, singlet wrestling boots, shadow boxing, and I was like he's like, don't worry, don't worry, I'm a jujitsu guy. And I was like fuck, you are. I think I saw your face on every MMA poster, like I think I know.
Speaker 1:But he was pretty nice. He wasn't as mean to me as fucking pavel yeah, pavel fucking got real upset.
Speaker 2:Who's pavel?
Speaker 1:pavel uh international no, so. So there's a young kid, pavel now, who a lot of people know. Pavel is incredibly good in the geese judo black bowl like I think he was european champion basically any.
Speaker 2:Any grappler named pavel you need to be wary of you need to watch your fucking back.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter where they're from, but as soon as I knew, as soon as I spoke really good english, I'm like, oh my god, this guy's traveled he's competed internationally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not everyone in poland speaking english, especially if a black belt just walks up to you and goes we'll roll next round. You're like shit, yeah they, they want to test. You just Just did a six month camp at Atos. Yeah, just come back from worlds, got silver to fucking Kynan Duarte. Anyway, there is levels to the open mat game, and so what we're speaking about, I believe, is two very different approaches, and it really does depend on how you learn, because some people respond well to the freedom and some people respond well to the structure. But ultimately, I think it just depends on where you're at in your skill development. It doesn't matter if you're a white belt or a brown belt. Sometimes you need more freedom to execute, and then other times you need more feedback to learn and improve, and so I think, bearing that in mind, do you think there's a sweet spot, joe? What would be your ratio?
Speaker 2:Look, man, I am. What do you like? What's your personal take? I like classes. You know I'm a lazy cunt. I don't want to do self-study. No, but I am. I'm just not my. I don't want to give time to jujitsu outside of class.
Speaker 1:But you love an open mat like anyone?
Speaker 2:I do, but that's the thing I would like. I always say I'd benefit way more from doing some study and fixing some gaps, but I just love playing the game, so I love showing up to an open mat and just banging, but I also know that I can only handle this every so often, Right?
Speaker 1:right right.
Speaker 2:So these days, you know, I don't really go to many open mats, but maybe, I don't know, maybe once a month, once every few weeks would be plenty, and then classes in between.
Speaker 1:My jiu-jitsu consists of pretty much 90% open mats. Like that's my jiu-jitsu right now. Honestly, I'm only training about twice a week, so generally the thing that fits in is like, oh, you guys got an open mat on Sunday. In is like, oh, you guys got an open mat on sunday. Boom, I'm there. Yeah, a bit of an open mat on a friday night. I'm there and you know I'm working on one or two things, but I would say my jujitsu has not developed at like. Honestly, my learning in jujitsu is really stalled. My, what I'm good at, I'm pretty good at because I just work the fuck out of it. But really I feel I would like to be able to institute more class time, because I enjoy learning shit and I like getting someone else's take on it and I think that's it's pretty important, no matter what level you're at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great.
Speaker 1:There it is, folks Open mat versus structured class. What's best for you? Let us know in the comments.
