Should Slamming Be Legal In Jiu Jitsu?

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Chapters

• 0:03 Set Up: Slams Under Fire
• 0:32 Rampage vs Randleman? No—Ricardo Arona
• 1:12 The Powerbomb Example And Legacy
• 2:16 New Jersey Slam Controversy
• 3:20 What Major Rule Sets Allow
• 4:04 ADCC’s Slam Rule And Notable Cases
• 5:01 Intent, Injury Risk, And Ref DQs
• 6:47 Takedowns, Spiking, And Gray Areas
• 7:17 EBI, Polaris, And Tournament Variations
• 7:26 Why ADCC Keeps Slams
• 8:20 Grassroots Safety vs Elite Spectacle
• 9:36 Should Slamming Be Banned?
• 11:00 Rule Familiarity, Instinct, And Chaos
• 12:10 Practical Advice: Submissions Under Slam Threat
• 19:46 Closing Question To Listeners

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

You better listen very carefully. A good martial artist does not become tense but ready. Essentially, at this point, the fight is over.

SPEAKER_01: 0:16

So you pretty much flow with the goal.

SPEAKER_00: 0:21

Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power? I'm ready. Slamming in BJJ, grappling tournaments. Let's talk about it. It's happening, and people are not happy. It's starting fights, and we need to talk a little bit more about where does slamming fit into grappling and should it be banned completely, maybe?

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

Or is it a fucking super legitimate technique?

SPEAKER_00: 0:51

Maybe it's an important escape, aka Rampage Jackson. Ricardo Rona.

SPEAKER_01: 0:57

Let's not forget the Brazilian Tiger famously, yeah, fucking slammed his way or got slammed by Rampage out in a triangle.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

That was like probably the greatest example of the power bomb knockout.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07

Yeah. For those that haven't seen that, Ricardo Rona was one of the most winning ADCC The most, I think 16 wins, no losses, no points. No points scored on him, right? The Brazilian Tiger, they called him. Potentially is a fucking animal. We met him. We met him at ADC in 2022.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Lovely bloke. And uh he went on to fight MMA. Yep. And he put Rampage Jackson in a triangle from the bottom. And Rampage just stood up and went full extension. Like he lifted him so high. It was it was beautiful. And then just fucking slammed him and knocked him out. And then I think Rampage got one or two shots in. Brutal. So my my old flatmate actually met Ricardo on a surf. He was he was involved in the surfing industry and he met him and he's like, Oh jujitsu, my flatmate does that. And he's like, Oh yeah. And he's like, Can I get your signature? Yeah, he knew he was a somebody, but he didn't know who he was. And he's like, Who are you? And he's like, just tell him I'm the guy that got slammed by Rampage Jackson.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

He was like, That's my oh, it's a shame to think that that's he he gets remembered a lot by that. But I mean, look, I remember him destroying Sakuraba, which was pretty brutal. Oh yeah, it's a fucking animal. Savage. But the reason why this came up is I was sent a message by a friend of the podcast who sent me a video and said, What do you think about this? And uh he had Close Guard as a brown belt, uh it was at uh World Jiu-Jitsu League, which was held in New Jersey. And I was actually uh pretty close. Fucking knee bars, no fucking knee bars, and I was I was actually in New Jersey that same weekend, strangely enough. Slam hurt around the suburbs. Yeah, I felt it. I was what the fuck was that? Um, yeah, and so I believe it was from clothes guard, and the guy stood up and he didn't have a submission on, and the guy just fucking bombed him. Right. And the referee kind of didn't quite know how to react, and the guy's like, what the fuck? And didn't knock him out, obviously. It was no, but it was like, dude, like he can injure people even just from the waist height, not from like a submission. And then he gets up and proceeds to get in the guy's face and fucking headbutts the car.

SPEAKER_01: 3:10

So the dude that got slammed headbutted the slam man.

SPEAKER_00: 3:12

Yeah, so he got he got DQ'd for the nice. That's what I would have done. Of course, it's the only it's logical progression there. But the person messaging me said, Hey man, what what the fuck with this? And I'm like, Yeah, it's terrible, right? Like in almost no um in no normal open tournament can you slam. The exception to this is the ADCC World Championships. No, and it's not allowed in the opens, right? You can't slam in the opens. It has to be from a locked-in submission. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 3:43

The o what are the opens? Like, you know, you're the trials.

SPEAKER_00: 3:46

Not not the trials. Like you can just go the ADCC has their own tournaments now. Ah, right. They have their own tournament series. So you could go to like ADCC Austin. Yeah. Similar to the IBJ JF. Yeah. But you can't you can't do slams in those. Right. It's only in the pro category. And it has to be from a locked-in submission.

SPEAKER_01: 4:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 4:04

Now, uh a pretty famous example of this is Jeff Glover had a locked-in triangle against Boogie from Tenth Planet. Yeah. And he yeah, Jeff was winning that match and he he kept it and he got yeah, he got rocked, and Boogie passed and beat him. Nice. Like he absolutely KO'd him. And people say, Oh, you know, but Jeff knew what was coming. And you know, some people with the slams will still hold on, being like, I'm tough enough to eat this, I want to get the submission.

SPEAKER_01: 4:31

But I also Well, I mean, sometimes the slam is ineffective, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:34

Yeah, it can be. Like, especially when you're in that kind of bold up in that flex position and you don't get your head slammed.

SPEAKER_01: 4:39

Yeah, you can but if they time it just right, it can also fuck you up. Like it's a gamble, it'd be devastating. And I sorry, it's also tricky because as grapplers, we're conditioned to slams being illegal. Yes. So you've usually trained that that it's not going to happen to you, and then you enter a comp where it can happen to you, and you're fucking right.

SPEAKER_00: 4:57

And I mean, this happened at Aiga, and I I saw this firsthand. Jason Nolf against Diego Pato. Pato got him in a triangle, so it was legit. Nolf's a strong, strong guy, stood up, looked at the ref and said, Can I slam this guy? And the ref went, Yeah, from the triangle, which he did. Didn't didn't really injure Pato, but Pato let the triangle go and they kept going. But then Pato got the clothes guard and Nolf stood up with him and looked at the ref and said, like, can I slam the guy? Ref's like, no. Still bombs him. Oh wow. Gets disqualified. Wow. And as a result, uh, you know, team Williams lost. Um, Pato's like, well, that was an easy win. Yeah. You know, it was kind of silly in a way. And, you know, he argued, oh, I didn't slam him. I just my knees got tired, and I I just but he's holding the heat. Well, I dropped him from close. It was accidental, you know, and I think I think the intention is what's going on here. And slamming people because they're landing on their spine, right? This is the chance of injuries, it's it's up there, you know? Yeah. Whether we're talking from a locked-in submission or not. Yeah. And so the reason why I want to talk about this is I I've been seeing it a bit more, you know, people posting clips of people slamming and then referees being like, shit, fuck.

SPEAKER_01: 6:21

You know, like the referees like so I give a DQ. So so just to clarify, ADCC in the like the pro big comp, you can do it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

From a locked in submission.

SPEAKER_01: 6:31

From a locked in sub. Or or like, yeah, and you can also take someone down, right? So you can pick them up and dump them. Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00: 6:37

Like you can can you spike? No. Not that this one. Well, I mean, it's kind of not intentionally.

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

Not intentionally. But that's the thing too, right? In the context of a takedown, and you've got someone on your shoulder, yeah, you can slam the fuck out of it. Yeah, so it's fucking and we've seen that more and more and people getting upset about it. EBI? Can you slam out of so in EBI, once the person lifts you up above their waist height, you must disengage the submission.

SPEAKER_01: 7:04

Right. That's the rules. So the onus is on the attack, like on the Yeah. Right. The guard puller.

SPEAKER_00: 7:10

Or the the guard player.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Guard player. Um, what about like what about like Polaris? Yeah, you you've seen some slams in there. I think tricky, right? Because it's become pretty commonplace now in no geek com.

SPEAKER_00: 7:21

Because it's okay, let's talk about why are there slams in ADCC. It's fucking exciting. Yep. Right? It it it leans more towards the MMA element of being the combat grappling, allegedly. Um, and then you know, just breaks the bottle and fucking stabs him in the neck.

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

Um, you know, I think Marillo Santana tried to introduce that rule set, but apparently they weren't happy with his approach.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

I cannot I cannot actually speak to the uh the exact factual accuracy of this statement. Who knows? Um shout out in the comments section. I'm sure you will. Um, but no, I think the thing is that um it I think the reason why the ADCC has it there, and I I searched this, there was no really good answer, is it is a legitimate dys defense to a submission is a slam. Yeah, yeah, right? Yep. And so you're like, okay, there's that. And at the end of the day, for the best part, if you're an average, if you're just a normal person going into a jiu-jitsu comp, you don't expect to get slams from clothes guard. Or you don't and most people are not even strong enough if you've got them in a triangle, most people are not strong enough to just pick you up from that position, right? That's they're not? I guess not. You've got them in a locked up train. Yeah, Joe. Not everyone is as strong as you, you've got to remember.

SPEAKER_01: 8:46

You get that adrenaline. You're not rampage jackal.

SPEAKER_00: 8:49

No, but it's such a tough spot, you know, like to do that. I think the reason why also the ADCC doesn't allow it in their normal tournaments is because the chance of injury is so high. Right. Like people are getting injured just off takedowns, yeah. You know, broken ribs and elbows and things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 9:06

So man, yeah, and it's and it's a it's um there's an aspect of like uh brutality to it. Yeah, yeah, it's like a strike.

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

Yeah, in terms of striking the person with the earth, yeah, yeah. And that's you know, that's why judo is so tough, you know, he's getting thrown into the ground. And I mean, it is available enough when you see people getting suplexed, right? Yeah, like Cody Cody Steele. I was actually sitting down the road from him at uh CJI2. Oh yeah, bro, that guy will just suplex you into the earth like multiple times.

SPEAKER_01: 9:39

Like I was I was looking forward to seeing more of that guy in the comp circuit. Yeah, like in the in the C J own shit. Maybe he's gone to MMA, so that's where his focus is. Because that that year when he did trials, there's some great highlights coming out.

SPEAKER_00: 9:53

Wild, yeah, wild business, so athletic, so vicious too. But reminds me of myself. The question is uh I don't see the likeness. Um, but uh, you know, that's fine, however you associate, Joe. Um I think the thing is should slam here's the question, should slamming be banned? Because it it seems like there's this gray area that people are getting confused in the moment, and like yes, the ADCC does it, but where is the line? Because most major competitions do not allow slamming, yet people are doing it. Yeah. From a closed guy position, from submission position.

SPEAKER_01: 10:27

I can't, I I don't see any reason. I I just think it's it's people not being familiar with the rule set. And you know, like whatever, we came up in competitions where you couldn't do it, right? No, and then you know, but you would go to the odd comp where it'd be like, oh, like, you know, I remember like at Bluebelt would be like, oh hey, at this comp, like you can do leg locks. Sure. You know, and it's like, oh shit, okay, wow, this comp's different. And then you go in and you're like, you know. Expecting that. So in a way, I just think that um maybe it's maybe for some of those smaller comps the rule sets are unclear. Maybe, maybe their coaches didn't good do a good job of explaining it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:01

Yeah, but it's it seemed to work pretty fine. But the I'm just talking risk to reward. Yeah, people get injured without slams, but you put slamming in the rule set. Is that a good idea? That's that's probably more what I'm getting to.

SPEAKER_01: 11:14

I don't have we seen anyone cop a really serious injury as a like I tend to think like even though they look spectacular and horrible on the body, um, I feel like we you we don't see like a lot of.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

Well, there probably hasn't been enough to run the study on the brain damage or the neck damage, or yeah, you know, like I mean jujitsu is not fucking not pillow fighting, like everybody's fucking going really hard to fuck each other up. Like that's the truth of it. So um it's more that because there's more people doing jujitsu at a grassroots level, not necessarily an elite level, but you're seeing super savage young humans at Blue Belt and Purple Belt going ham on each other, especially in the ADCC comps and greater rule sets like grappling industries, you know, they allow certain leg locks and advanced categories. Um yeah, you're seeing plenty of people fucking wreck each other. I guess the thing is is slamming or should slamming be a part of grappling? Like, is that legitimate as a as a part of grappling? And so that's that's what I wanted to touch on. Because if people are suffering from it, and I'm sure there's a bunch of people who've got injured, have it happen to them, it's just not famous. It just happened at a small comp somewhere. And yeah, even if it wasn't in the rule set, they might have been on the wrong end of that and it's done them damage, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 12:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:37

So that's where I feel like it could be could be really good if there's just like a blanket rule that outside of the ADCC or outside of like a prize money match at the elite level, just no fucking slamming and it's just super clear, you know? Because maybe having the lines blurred is a problem. The number one thing that is ruining your BJ performance is dehydration. You're getting thirsty after warm-up, you're feeling lethargic when you're rolling, and you're getting cramps by the end of class. The key to unlocking this is Sodi. That is the sponsor of today's show. It is the best tasting mineral salts you can get to hydrate yourself. What do they do? Electrolytes, sodium, potassium, and magnesium. Keep the water in your working muscles so that you feel really good, you've got the energy, and you don't suffer cramps. Go to sodi, sod double i.com.au and use the code bulletproof15. You get 15% off, it tastes great, and you are gonna feel great when you roll.

SPEAKER_01: 13:36

But that's kind of how it is, right? As in, it really is only those elite comps that allow it. Uh you know, from what we know.

SPEAKER_00: 13:44

I don't I I couldn't say for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

Yeah, right. But it seems from our I'm observing that like most of the mainstream comps, I'm sure like grappling industries and stuff and IBJ JF stuff, it's not allowed. No slamming. Yeah, so so in that way, no, I'm all for it. Okay. You know, just in terms of like, I mean, there's you know, it's kind of like um fuck do we allow leg locks? Well, we're gonna some motherfuckers are gonna get some ligaments torn. You know, and it's like, well, that's the game, you know. So I yeah, I I tend to think it's spectacular and I like it. Yeah, and I, you know, and I do, I do also like, I do also think it's a like from a from a purity perspective, I'm like, it's a totally legitimate technique. Someone pulls some, because it's kind of like guard pulling, right? In a way, like like guard pulling has become like like you will see people slam themselves like often to pull guard, you know, they'll like fly onto their back and like fuck up their, you know, whatever, like and you're like, wow, you can only do that because we're on mats.

SPEAKER_00: 14:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

You know what I mean? And so you're like, in a way, there's been a departure from, you know, and of course, it's a sport and it's had its own evolution, but there's a great departure from like what would actually be effective self-defense. Right. Um, but I don't think we can let's not go too far to the side here.

SPEAKER_00: 15:04

No, no, no, no. Sports sports PGJ has nothing to do with self-defense, so we just can't even No, no, but but follow me with this.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

But so the but so the idea that like it would be an even further departure, right? If we're like, oh hey, this this thing that could be potentially injurious, we can't allow it anymore. I think like, no, that's fucking legit. All right. Well, I think we'll You feel otherwise?

SPEAKER_00: 15:26

Uh no, I I look slamming happens, right? Even intentional or no, right? Like someone just loses their balance. They didn't actually mean to slam them and they get DQ'd. Whereas you've got some people who are who are have bad intentions, right? And I and I think this is where you, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 15:41

And those cunts with bad intentions also do armbars. They're also allowed to jump guillotine on you. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. They're gonna fucking separate your spine if they get the chance. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

But what I guess what I'm saying here is that is it necessary to have slamming as part of grappling? And I would say no. In the same way, many things are not allowed to be in there because it's grappling. You know what I mean? Like, there's I'm sure there's plenty of people be like, yeah, but how come you can't fucking just fucking shin kick calf kicks, bro? And I mean, if you look at last CJI. As long as you do with a lot of inside edge of your foot, you can kick the leg as hard as like dude. Uh uh Giancarlo um Voldoni, bro, he was just fucking oh yeah. Like it was there was no inside, it was just I look like I clubbed you and bam, leg kicked. So look, you know, I at the end of the day, I I think my thinking, because I'm always, you know, maybe I'm a bit conservative in this way. I think about injury and I think about longevity and I think about all this shit. And I think if you're an average punter, just I mean, obviously, if you know the rules and you're going into the environment, that's fine. And like you say, maybe at the highest level or the pro level, it's like you choose to play this game, this is the fucking rule set, that's it, right? So I think we we we all have a degree of uh what's it called? Not obligation, you know. You know, you know what you sign up for.

SPEAKER_01: 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:10

I think it's more than when uh somebody, you know, no fucking knee boss. You're like, no, dude, it's the purple belt category. Somebody breaks the rule of that. Yeah. And it's like everyone's trying to play by the rules except for one person. Yeah. And so I feel this is where it can, it can, it can have some have some bad outcomes. But that's, I mean, I I I tend to think that that's that's just competing.

SPEAKER_01: 17:32

That's just the rule is already there in those comps, no slamming, and can't still do it. And as we know, it's be it's an in it, I I tend to think it's an instinctive thing for a lot of people who are less trained, whereby, or seriously frustrated, maybe like Jason Knolf, yeah, where it's like, fucking get off me, can't you? And you just you have a you know, you fuck out and you're not thinking straight, and you know, you're like, I can just pick this cunt and slam him. Sure. Like I know I got slammed once in a in a in a white belt comp. Yeah, and um, and eh, well, whatever, well, white belts. The dude probably didn't know that was a rule, right? Sure. He's probably a rugby league player and it was his first jits there, you know. Sure. But but even when the rule says don't do it, it's still gonna happen sometimes.

SPEAKER_00: 18:13

It can happen, yeah, yeah. But you're never gonna outlaw it completely. No, no, no, it's not that it's not outlawed, it's it is outlawed. People are gonna break the rules. Like you can't, you that's the chaos element. You can't stop that. I guess it's more that because people are aware it's part of the game or they may have experienced a different rule set, then by having it as part of the game, that means it's more likely to happen. That might be a long straw to draw, right? But that's that's more the angle I'm coming from. So, Joe is pro-slamming. I am not. I'm pro, you know, and I do think just know when you fucking roll this guy. Don't go for the triangle. Fuck man, yeah. I had a little brain fart. Fucking.

SPEAKER_01: 18:52

Goodoosh. But the but the other side of it too is if you know that that's a risk, then it makes you approach your submissions in a in a slightly different way, right? Like if you're throwing a triangle or an arm bar from the bottom, yeah, yeah, hook the leg or fucking like secure something, yeah. Know when to ballet. And I'm like, I I feel like that's also a good, like that's also good for your jujitsu is to know that, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 19:14

I I yeah. It's a street. Yeah. Fuck the streets. Fuck them kids. Uh no, I think the thing is it's just like it's there's such variety in what if you just go to like a kind of this might sound wrong, like more like a mum and pop school, and then you've got some young kid training at the baddest gym ever, and they all slam and they all bang, and it's tough as fuck. And you put these two people in the same environment, even though the rules may be stated or maybe they weren't read to them, they have two very different approaches to grappling, and yeah, one person's gonna end up, you know, potentially very badly hurt just just because you've got such a variety in expectation around what competition is, regardless of the rule set, you know. Anyway, there it is. Do you like to slam or are you against it? Let us know in the comments, folks. Peace.