Start Your Rounds Standing, It'll Level Up Your Jiu Jitsu

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Chapters

• 0:00 Make The Case For Starting Standing
• 1:05 Real-Life Fights Begin On The Feet
• 3:10 Judo And Wrestling Lessons From The Mat
• 5:12 Guard Pulling As A Trainable Skill
• 7:20 Confidence, Competence, And Complete Grappling
• 9:20 Conditioning Benefits Of Stand-Up Rounds
• 12:10 Culture, Cross-Training, And Toughness
• 13:50 Safety, Space, And Injury Tradeoffs
• 16:20 Managing Intensity And Training Goals
• 18:20 Beginners, Coordination, And Class Design
• 20:28 Final Takeaway: Start Standing

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

If you want to get better at jujitsu, you need to start your rolling rounds standing. That's right, folks. No more starting on your knees. I'm going to make the case as to why you've got to start standing and how it makes a positive difference to your jujitsu. Now, when I started jujitsu Joe, there was a lot of on the knees. There was a lot of like, nah, we've got a lot of people. Start on your knees. It's safer. Also, my coach didn't know how to wrestle or do takedowns. So that kind of solves that problem, right? They had a really good guard game at the gym I was at. So let's just start in guard, one person kneeling, one person playing guard. But then you go to competition and you start standing. So what the hell are we doing? And what I have found, spent having spent a bit more time in the last probably 10 years doing judo, doing wrestling, and working from the feet, that this just develops a whole nother skill set, which just makes your jiu-jitsu better. This is my take, and I've got a few points as to why this is. But there's also, I believe, some arguments for why you would start on the knees. Let's uh let's chat it out. Let's fucking dive in. So here's the deal. Without, I'm not someone who believes in jujitsu is self-defense. That's not I'm not about that. I'm not saying it can't be the case, but that's not, I've never made that argument, right? But that that it's all about self-defense. Or just that I don't, I don't, I think, you know, I I think that for someone to um best equip themselves for um fights in general or physical confrontations, you need to learn some striking and you need to learn some grappling and you need to do a bunch of stuff. I don't believe that jujitsu is BJJ in its current incarnation is the way for self-defense. Right. But if you're gonna get into a tussle with somebody, it's generally on the feet. You know, like this this is and I have so many mates who just want to try and grab me and have a little play wrestle. And I'm definitely not pulling guard. I am not sitting on my ass on tiles, on concrete, on a gym floor, on a fucking deck. You you have to do some skills that require balance and proprioception from your feet. So I believe that one of the first mistakes that is made is that someone who starts learning BJJ starts from the ground. And I think that this is actually impractical to life, and I think it's unrealistic. So that's my my first point as to why I think when you start on your feet, it just gives you a different orientation to um combat as an exchange. Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

What is your what is your take on this, Joe? I I would agree with that for sure. Like yeah, all confrontations start on the feet. Um, I mean, unless seven seconds. You might get sucker punched. Yeah, right, or yeah, or your, you know, whatever, you found yourself on your back, and you know, but but but yes, I think that like neglecting that side of it leaves like you're leaving a huge amount of your potential learning capacity as just a human, like movement capacity, you're leaving it on the table.

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

Yeah, and and look, I I think whether you're referencing something like MMA and you're looking at a guy like Islam Makachev, like doing Nogi Judo stuff like this, like obviously wrestling, but um we had this um this this older guy who we used to train with at judo at um resilience, uh Dan Kelly's judo gym in Victoria. Shout out, uh amazing Jim, who's uh a brown belt and never quite a black belt, but like brown belt for life, and he had the best foot sweep, and he wasn't really good at a lot of other stuff, not particularly athletic, but man, if he just got you, he could the foot sweep is so it decimates you like you just and he did nothing, and you're on your back. And generally he would be like, have your arm, like could armbar you or had side control, and actually his knees were so bad he wouldn't even like do a knee ride or he just like just try and get the ipon like that. Yeah, but I I think we you know you've we've all seen judo highlights where you just see someone just they just block the foot at the right time, and the whole person, you know, they're just sideways. It's a magical thing. And if you're not spending any time thinking about your footwork standing, you become a much worse grappler. And you see it at jujitsu tournaments where you've got two people who don't know how to do stand-up, but also are not willing to pull guard, just locked in this infinite struggle of terrible jujitsu, and you're like, this is this is not how this is not what it is, this is not what it's about.

SPEAKER_00: 4:50

Yeah, I mean, I would say that that sometimes that that sort of stalemate that you see in competition can often come from from two athletes that have have a reasonable level of standup, but they're not good enough at wrestling to execute a takedown on someone that's got a reasonable amount of stand-up.

SPEAKER_01: 5:07

Yeah, it's kind of nullified.

SPEAKER_00: 5:09

Yeah, and so you know, that's an unfive. Yeah, I've been stuck in that situation many times. But um, yeah, I mean, you know, guard pulling, you've got to get good at pulling guard, right? You got it's it has its place.

SPEAKER_01: 5:18

Well, I was gonna say that that is also that that leads me to the next point, which is if you don't start standing, you don't actually get to practice pulling guard, which is the timing on it, it's its own skill. Yep. And so you that's a huge component. If you are someone who wants to play guard and that's your kind of focus, you need to get there without someone just like knee tapping you and passing your guard. Yeah, you know, and so I think that that's that's super valid.

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

You know, I think that for a lot of us, like when we in when we think about how we view ourselves as grapplers and you know the skills that we're developing on the mats and stuff. Um, you know, for I'm gonna go out and lean here and say for most dudes, it's like part of it's like I'm a bit of a beast, I can like put people down, like control them, submit them, you know. And it's like I'm a warrior. You're not able to just stand up with someone and you can't do a couple of takedowns, you you're not fulfilling that prophecy. You know, it's like there's nothing wrong with being a guard puller, but you know, part of like I really do think that original thing of like the self, like that kind of complete package of you can defend yourself, you take someone down, control, pass, submit is awesome. Yeah, and so yeah, if you're always starting on the ground, you're just missing out on developing that side of your game. You don't have to be epic at takedowns. I'm I'm fine. I'm fine if you want to like because that you are gonna learn them to an organic extent by just standing, right? Yes. Um, you don't have to you don't have to go to wrestling classes, that would be sick, but most of us don't have time, but also defending, like not only initiating, but being aware of, oh, this person has this grip, that's bad for me.

SPEAKER_01: 7:01

I've got to I've got to do something about that. Yeah, I I think you you you're missing a huge part of just grappling awareness. You you're making yourself less capable by starting on the ground, you're just missing this important part. So it actually doesn't it creates a huge deficit in your knowledge of grappling, ghe or no gi. That's what that's what I would say there. But here's the real deal conditioning. Oh my god. So, as is the way of the internet, I had someone reach out to me on Instagram and be like, hey man, I'd love for you to do me a program XYZ. Okay, great. Um, cool. Uh, yeah, I want to get fit, I want to improve my gas tank. Okay, awesome. Right. What are you doing right now? Oh, I'm doing like a salt bike and tobacco and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, how often do you train jujitsu? And they say, oh, probably three or four times a week. I'm like, okay, they want to compete. Cool. I'm like, how much wrestling or stand-up uh grappling are you doing? Oh, I don't, we don't, we don't do that at my gym. What? You want to compete, but you don't wrestle and you don't do stand-up. No, no, my coach says it's not safe. We just we just start from the knees. I'm like, well, that's what's fucking missing, man. Like, the thing that I cannot stress enough is skilled or not, if you have two people trying to take each other down, or one person defending, one person attacking for three minutes, that is some of the hardest work you're gonna do. Yeah. Because it just the takedown, just the wrestling component, because it's not oh now they're fighting from their back and I'm trying to pass. It's like you kind of took them down. Stand up, do it again, do it again. It's so hard. Oh, it's the most taxing shit. It's grueling. So just even three by three minute rounds, like nine minutes of just trying to wrestle, even if you're not good, will improve your specific conditioning in a massive way. And you don't have to be some super slick wrestler to get a huge benefit from it. And every time I've thought to myself, man, I'm I'm I'm feel like my gas tank's not up to par. I either go to judo or I go to wrestling class. And that's that, you know, man, I I really am I have a huge distaste for cardio equipment. I just think it's I'm at a point in my life where I, you know, I have thought it for a long time, but it's a scam, folks. It's for people who don't know how to fitness good. And if you're into grappling, if you're not spending a considerable amount of time doing stand-up grappling, you're missing out on huge fitness benefits. And that's another reason why I believe it's starting on your feet is so important.

SPEAKER_00: 9:43

Yeah, I would agree with that. It's fucking hard on the gas tank, those three minute wrestling rounds, even like a 60-second wrestling round. Oh, like if you go, you know, sometimes you get that. Like, hey, we're doing a six-minute round, first minutes, just wrestling. Just wrestle. You know, and you're like, you're waiting for that minute to be up. You know, like you're like, fuck, I'm soft.

SPEAKER_01: 10:00

It's tough, it's tough. And and I think that this is this is the thing that um it is easier to not do it. Yeah, that's that's even though we always talk about discomfort, get humbled, we all hate in those wrestling rounds. Oh, yeah. You know, that's really where it tests your soul because it just it's lactate really fast.

SPEAKER_00: 10:23

We've got a um shouts to one of the new boys at the gym, Nat. He's a Welshman. Oh, and he's uh he trained town. I was like, Where'd you come from? And he told me the name of Jim, I didn't know it, but he said it's where Fion started, right? And he's like, It's good, Jim. And uh he's a blue belt, but he's fucking handy, he's real handy, he's a great role. And uh, but I noticed instantly standing up, I was like, Whoa, you're a real handful, and he's like, Yeah, we did a bunch of wrestling classes, and I'm like, What how fucking cool is that? Like, like I just noticed is I'm like, this guy's tough on the feet. The Welsh are a tough people, let's just say that. Yeah, I mean, no softies up that end of the world, but but just like, but you're like, ladies and gentlemen, I have the perfect snack bar.

SPEAKER_01: 11:07

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SPEAKER_00: 11:45

The fact that you, you know, you're a blue belt, you're early on, you've you've probably got a few couple of years, few years of training under your belt, but you're already tough on the feet because you've just had some exposure to it. Yeah, you probably did wrestling once a week, but you probably also started all your rounds on the feet. And he said that he's like, Yeah, we we we never we only ever start on the feet. Yeah. And yes, there is an increased injury risk, they say. I don't actually allegedly. Yeah, I don't actually know if that's I mean, I'm I don't know if that's been well measured.

SPEAKER_01: 12:14

So that I I believe it rank it ranks as like highest rate of injury is judo first, wrestling second, BJJ third. Right. Right? Yeah, because in judo the throwing on the ground is all the time. Yeah. Like even if you're not even if you're not someone who's competitive in judo, you will get thrown on the ground every fucking class. Yeah. That it breaks full on. That's right, it's part of the game. Whereas in wrestling, that's not always the way. Right. And the highest, I I read a study many years ago to show that the highest rate of injury in wrestling was for the person getting taken down. Right, yeah. Yeah, the the takedown E, not the takedown er. Yeah, yeah. The person doing the takedowns, not as injured. So if you're the better wrestler, you're less injured. I mean, yeah, you're breaking your fall with their body usually. Yeah. Kind of like boxing, you know. If you're the better boxer, you've got less brain damage, generally speaking. But I I think that the challenge here is they say that the two most demanding things, energy-wise, for the human, for a human, is learning and moving their body. And we get dopamine from both of them, right? So that's why like we love and also not hate, but like we understand how hard jujitsu can be because we're trying to learn a new skill and fucking move our bodies against this crazy resistance of another human. I believe that what can kind of function as a as a disservice because you because jujitsu is so big and we think of um stand-up grappling maybe as being separate or not part of it, this is this is like a misconception. I just think of it all as grappling, right? Like all the best people do everything.

SPEAKER_00: 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:03

And so if you don't compartmentalize it in this way, and you just think of it all as grappling and just getting better at the thing, you just do it, you know. You're not like, oh, that's I'm I don't identify as a wrestler, I identify as a gi him. Whatever, you know, whatever it might be, you know. And so, but that's it's all grappling, it doesn't fucking matter. You know, there's gonna be a black belt judo guy who shows up in your no-gi class and just fucking pole axes you, you know, it's it's true, and you you know, it doesn't matter, you you're not safe. The the the the wrestlers are cross-pollinating, like it's just it's just grappling. So I actually want to kind of go to the other side of this chat as to why some schools coaches do make the argument for the not starting on the feet, right? Because the the first thing that some valid arguments, yeah. Yeah, and the safety thing isn't just from getting taken down, it's people running into each other. Right now, I've I've had a few hard rolls where I've been run into a wall. I may have also run Adam into a wall at different times. I dull advantage, Jim. Like trying to finish the single and just almost put him through a fucking window. He just refuses to go down.

SPEAKER_00: 15:13

He's like, I could just concede the takedown and keep the room cool. No, I will you will have to put me through that wall and I still won't go down.

SPEAKER_01: 15:21

Godzilla versus Kong. Impact. And you see it too, like sometimes you're rolling and then someone kicks you in the back of the head, you're like, and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, and they're like, you know, going back and forth. There is definitely a valid thing around that. Yeah, because I've also seen some, you know, I don't know if you've you may have seen this Joe where they say you shouldn't like post on your arm when you're sitting, you should post on your elbow. Oh right. Because someone can fall on your arm and break your arm.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

Oh, oh, I see. I witnessed that. Well, like when you're on the mat.

SPEAKER_01: 15:54

Yeah, like someone was sitting, yeah, someone was sitting on the side of the mat with their arm out, and a person just stepped back and stomped this person's elbow and just absolutely snap their elbow. Oh, that's awful. Brutal, right? I guess that could happen. It can happen, right? There is a higher, there is a degree of risk in the um in the dynamic nature of stand-up grappling. Yeah. So I I see that. Also, if you've got a small gym spot.

SPEAKER_00: 16:18

But wait, that could still happen when it just what two people like someone playing guard and someone else standing, right? Um sweep someone into the into your elbow. Potentially, potentially.

SPEAKER_01: 16:27

But let's see if I can do that next class. Just throwing people into other people. Yeah, I'm sick of that guy. He's good. I'm gonna injure him with this person. Um small space. Not everyone's got a huge mat space. Yeah, you're trying to get as many people as you can on the mat. It's much easier to fit two people into like two square meters if they're on the ground than if they're standing up running around the place, right?

SPEAKER_00: 16:51

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that at certain times, it's totally fine to not start on the feet. Right, you know, if it's like, hey, we're doing a positional thing or it's a super busy class, but if that's what you do all the time, right? If it's like no, we never start on the feet, you know, then that that's uh maybe a bit limited in the thinking. A deficiency in the philosophy.

SPEAKER_01: 17:13

Yeah. And also you may not want every session to be war. It is very energy intensive to be doing stand-up. So if you are training every day, five, six days a week, you know, maybe you're not coming for that that smoke. Like maybe that's not appropriate because trying to do that every day is gonna burn you out. So uh just you intentionally back off the intensity by not having that war, you know, like it's a way to moderate.

SPEAKER_00: 17:46

But you could still, I mean, in this example, you could still start standing and then pull guard straight away, right? You can, like, and then and then that's that's still working on that skill of weakness, uh but yeah, pulling guard at the right moment, you know, getting your grips, whatever. Like and so I think in that way, I I you know, like if I I do that, if I'm trying to have a light session, yeah, and I'm saying rolling with that or one of the boys, I'm like, this will be a physical one, I'll just pull guard right away. Sure. You know, with a grip, legally, of course. Um because I'm like, yeah, I'm not trying to get into the fire.

SPEAKER_01: 18:19

Yeah, yeah. And and the the last thing on this is saving time because I have also seen people not do any jujitsu just having a stand-up war where people get grips and they don't break them. Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding. Push-pull thing, yeah. They're both locked up, like a lapel grip and a sleeve grip, or just both collar tie, or people both got an underhook and no grappling gets done, really. Like you, I I believe that just by starting in a position like positional sparring, or by cutting that out, you get to the skill of the pass, the sweep, the submission. So I think that's where it comes around more like similar to what we're saying before about what skill are you practicing. If this if you didn't come to practice takedowns, it may not be productive for the role to start there. Because it might end up derailing you trying to work on K guard or leg locks or whatever you were doing.

SPEAKER_00: 19:20

Yeah, for sure. You know, the other, I suppose the other thing I'd say too is um I don't love watching brand new people. I mean, I don't love watching brand new people roll, right? Like I really do think, you know. Hey, white white belts are people too, Joe. No, no, no. White belts are not like I mean brand new as in, oh, it's your first week. Oh, of course. You know, like we know white belts go for it, but uh, you know, like you see, yeah, you see like one of one of the mums from the a kid comes to kids class and she's jumped in tonight to give it a go. And it's like, you know, she's starting standing in around and blast double, boom! You've kind of said to the coach said, Hey, you just go easy with fucking Fiona, but someone did, you know, it's just like Well, too much chaos. Yeah. You know, too much potential there. There is a coordinate coordinative aspect to stand up. Yes. You know, for you to be safe with your knees and your ankles.

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

To be orientated.

SPEAKER_00: 20:12

Yeah. And so, you know, and and so for beginners program, maybe that's a thing that has to be developed.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

Yeah, no, no, I think that's that's a fair call too. And you know, I think good gyms do factor that in is having that beginner class for them to like step through the skills. But there it is, folks. If you're trying to improve your fitness, you're trying to get better at jujitsu, start standing.