The Harsh Reality Of AI In Jiu Jitsu

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Transcript

BJJ Meets AI

SPEAKER_01 0:00

BJJ in the age of AI. Now, AI is pervading every corner of our life. I was in San Francisco recently. I was talking to people who are in the industry. Sitting down with Palantir. At the forefront. No, I don't fuck with those guys. Meta. But actually, open AI. So a friend of mine, his business got bought by Open AI, and he is a head engineer there. So I did get a little bit of view behind the curtain to understand where that's going.

AI Feedback From Rolling Footage

SPEAKER_01 0:30

But more recently, Joe, I was approached by someone who has an AI analysis app for BJJ. Oh. And said you can put your rolling footage in there and it will analyze it and give you feedback. And I was like, mmm, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

You put your footage in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

It analyses the footage and it and it will give you kind of coaching feedback. Now I had actually talked about this ages ago where I was like, and I I know I've previously uh with Joe, Joe will be like, all right, just stay on topic. Just stay, just stay focused on what we're doing. And I'll be like, Jiu Jitsu robots.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, I remember it. It's like, oh I mean, it was one of my favorite episodes we've done together. Joe's not pleased.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

But um, but that said, I believe that in the not too distant future, there will be jujitsu kids who are raised on the AI summary of Andre Galvalm, Danaher, Craig Jones, you name it, training with a jiu-jitsu robot will come through and be a world champion, having not trained with people. In the synthetic lab of jujitsu, like I I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying I believe that future exists. Right. Why? Why do I say that? Because as we can see with the acceleration of jiu-jitsu now, through different learning platforms, like whether it be BJJ Fanatics, um, you know, Lockie's platform, like every jiu-jitsu practitioner now has a Patreon. You can learn from them directly. You know, Atomic Dojo with um Jeremy and Paul Skinner, whatever the platform might be, if you want to learn the technique, it's a it's available to you.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Where I see this going further is, and I've said this before, the idea of a virtual coach. Like, if you can't get time with your coach, the technology is going to evolve to be able to give you feedback. As to whether or not you think that's good or bad, that's a separate thing. But I want to talk about how this is going to have a in the same way, Nogi, the specialization in Nogi and Gee has kind of split jujitsu. I believe the not exclusive, but people who go super deep on the use of technology and people who shy away from that and go, no, fuck that. That's not what I'm about. This will split jujitsu in a way. So that's that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about not only is it affecting us personally, but it will affect the the way jujitsu is learnt and practiced. So

Community Value In A Lonely Age

SPEAKER_01 3:03

the reason why I want to talk about this is more and more people are feeling isolated. That's there's a loneliness epidemic, you know. We talk about this in the society, and I believe that the true value in jujitsu is the team connection, it's the togetherness, it's getting to hang out with your mates. Like that is the truth, and that I believe will become it's what keeps you in there. Yeah, it's it's kind of for most people, it's the fun of it, really. Yeah, but for folks who don't give a fuck about that, and as the Tism gets stronger in you know, future generations of social conditioning through uh, you know, whether it be um just addiction to technology, whatever it might be, you get folks who are like, I don't want to deal with people, but I want to learn jujitsu. I do believe that the technology is evolving, that in say five years, there will be a path for somebody to learn, not exclusively, but almost exclusively, not from other people.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, well, I mean, I knew a guy back in the day who had gotten to Purple Belt and never did a group class. Oh, just only ever did privates. Interesting, and in even that as a crude sort of parallel where you're like, that's odd. It's a bit weird. It's a bit weird, man. Like you've been doing it for what, four years, five years, and you've and you've never you've never gone and rolled with anyone else except for this person that you pay. You know, I'm like, yeah, it's fucking strange.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I feel it's a bit protected, folks who go that path.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah, I mean it, I mean, yeah, whatever, right? Like they obviously enjoy it because they're they're still doing it. And I guess in a way, jujitsu can be different things for different people, but you would think that if there were people doing that en masse, that it would be problematic to observe. You'd be like, well, what the fuck's going on here? We've turned our back on what for most of us is the most potent and nourishing part of being a jujitsu player. Connection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, definitely. And like I said before, I'm not saying this in the sense of it being good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

I'm just saying Well, yeah, it's it's all headed that way, right? Like if you look at the younger generation now, they're much more happy to engage with their friends through the screen than they are to actually go and hang out with their friends.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

But actually, there can be a pushback here. This is where it can kind of cyclically go the other way, where younger generation goes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

You said some, not all, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah. Men, fuck AI. Like, we don't want to borrow that. We're just gonna go ride our bikes or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Like there's a point at which it's nice to see that there is some like groups that are pushing back.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah, for sure. But

Tech Accelerates Learning And Splits Culture

SPEAKER_01 5:39

it's also the idea of accelerated learning because you know so, for example, before when you when we started jujitsu, there's probably only one or two people who had been to Brazil, or there's probably only one or two people who had you encountered who'd been to a world championship. Whereas now that's like a migratory, like every year Australians are going to these championships and and they're starting to win, and they're you know, Australia's getting a reputation for producing really great grapplers, you know, like this has been happening more and more in the last 10 years, that as um people's learning is accelerated, that then has a compounding effect where they are. So I believe that as you get like anything, any kind of technological uh improvement, it doesn't necessarily make someone a good person. But if you've got someone who is literally snorting Adderall and downloading jujitsu into their brain and you know, drilling or non-stop uh constraints-based games against a jiu-jitsu robot that never tires, you know, it's it sounds crazy, it sounds like some kind of anime manga scenario of some evil lab creating the ultimate um meow brother-esque fiend of jujitsu.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, it's it's it's feasible.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, I'm not saying it's good. No, no, no, I know. And then the flip side of that is also when people go to a jiu-jitsu class and they engage with each other, it forces socialization. And that's actually really good. Because you might get someone who's okay with the touchy feeliness of jujitsu and someone who's not, and it's through them engaging that they learn a bit, you know, like how to deal with each other, right? So I I see two um polarizing elements of this people who will be like, nah, man, I don't, I don't even fuck with AI, I have I don't even care about learning online. I go to jujitsu because I want to train with people. That's what I'm about, that's how I do it. And then could go, you know, you have people who might go more exclusively the other way.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, I would agree. I think

Can Solo Training Survive Competition Chaos

SPEAKER_00 7:47

um, I mean, I think the hard part is, right, if you if you were a hundred percent AI, robot, solo drill, grown, grappler, and you were really good, right? You had all the technical shit, you're like an encyclopedia. And then, you know, like where do you do your jujitsu? Well, you do it at a competition. Okay, well, when you go to a comp, you gotta roll with other people. Motherfuckers are sweaty, the mats are gross, someone's sweat might drop in your mouth. Yeah. Shit that happens to you at training every fucking day. Yeah, but not your training because you're fucking home, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, sure. And you're like, like all those little things, you know, you don't have the time, like the like we said in the in the last chat, like the fucking scheduling's a mess, the the person's calling your name in Portuguese, you know, whatever. Like it's just it's a bit of it's a bit of a shambles, right? And so um, that's all the stuff you've never been exposed to. The chaos of real life. Yeah, because you've been doing it in this isolated, you know, garage, basement, whatever. Sure. I wonder if you can you can become that and it can you transfer it to the game, or do you always just remain on paper?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

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SPEAKER_01 8:55

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SPEAKER_00 9:32

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SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah,

Building Agents For Jiu Jitsu AI

SPEAKER_01 10:11

I I I'm I'm the reason why I wanted to have this chat is it's like for me, it's an interesting idea because I actually think it's coming. Because I had a chat with somebody about can you could you teach uh an LLM that can run like thousands of processes, you know, continuously jujitsu. And they were like, you definitely can, it'd take a little while. Because like I had a play around with some like agentic function, and you know, my friend was what what's referred to as pill maxing. He's going ultra fucking deep on a particular kind of uh agentic model and just building agents.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Why is it called pill maxing?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Pill max it's like the you know, like taking the the red pill, blue pill, like you just like you just keep taking that pill and going deeper, deeper, deeper.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Like you are absolutely means you're like honing in on one particular thing, yeah. And he's you know increasing. Because I fucking pill maxed, but we didn't call it that back then. We just called it ODing. We just called it fucking you're doing pingings tonight, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Right man, it's good, this air is kind of shook by your mates. But uh no, no, it the the thing for me is I see that the even it doesn't matter what happens technologically, I believe people going to jujitsu training with other people will be the most important thing for most people because that is how they get connection.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

But there'll be a subset of folks, you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, because there is already some of those folks that you see who don't play well with others and they go to competition and they break people's shit and they do just fine, like in terms of that bar.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true. They're out there, lone wolf type.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, and they're just yeah, they're they're not really interested in making

AI Hype Sustainability And Real Outputs

SPEAKER_01 11:59

friends.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

You know, I gotta I gotta fucking I gotta put my take forward on this whole AI thing because it's such a thing at the time, it's such a thing right now, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Now, is this in the context of BJJ or just in BJJ?

SPEAKER_00 12:10

No, so it's just a general statement about it. I think that we are right now, and you've just come back from the heartland of this, right? Like Silicon Valley. Yeah, um, we are in this giant circle jerk of like the potential of AI. And all we're hearing about is all these amazing things is gonna do. Now, it's been it's been it's been about now for some time, right? But it's always getting better at the big thing's always just around the corner. I reckon it's gonna fizzle out. I don't, I don't think, and I and I think that like it's gonna be around and you're gonna have whatever chat GPT type stuff and some other shit. And you know, you've got AI technology in your phones, in your cars, whatever, but this whole thing the way we feel like right now we're on the cusp of I don't think it's ever gonna change, it's ever gonna come. I I yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

I I more or less agree with that, but I I think if you look at it, it's just the way it's organized is incredibly unsustainable. And yeah, you know, like because of the amount of money and the amount of resources and everything it's taken to get to where it is now, yeah, to do shit that's like impressive, but not actually that important. Not there yet. You know, like I you know, I heard some crazy stat um many years ago it was saying, like, you know, humans consume 4.2 Earth's worth of resources. You know what I mean? Like we cons like energy, food, everything. We the thing about AI is it has consumed so much money and so much uh attention and everything to get to where it is now for it to get to where the true believers say it will go, it like needs it double again, triple, like it's almost like it's it's almost impossible as a as a dream for it to realize its potential. But then there's folks talking about like um like simple language learning models, like SLMs, and like they're saying that actually the future of AI is not this some big behemoth in the cloud, it'll be localized. You'll have your own server, you'll have uh a little open source dude working for you, and it does the thing for you. There's a lot of free models out there.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

But what it what does it do for you? Uh everything that it doesn't already do. Everything. No, no, no. But I I I'm and I'm not saying that. I do I just feel like those those dreams are like when you like when you drill down to like, okay, well, like what's the actual, what's the output, what do I get? People like, I don't know, but it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

No, no, but I mean it already uh there have been a lot of complex problems solved, right? And many problems that we didn't have the answers to before resolved very quickly, right? I'm not saying that I'm not like an AI true believer, I have friends who are. But what I would say is that they're blown up in the comments right now, by the way. No, no, they're they're not watching this at all. Um, yeah, it's just there's so much corruption and there's so much nonsense that goes around the big companies that are saying this is what AI is, but if you actually listen to other technologists who are not to-do with that, they're making a case for other alternative ways for um AI to be a successful, sustainable thing that doesn't cost a quadrillion dollars.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

So there is there is ways that potentially AI can succeed in the future, but in its current incarnation, it's almost like it'll never get there because basically it's just gonna set the world on fire before it's any good. Yeah, and then by the time the world's on fire, a fucking legal document, it can't, you know, and yeah, anyway. I

Better Grappling Worse Life Question

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I where I wanted to go with this chat is that does the advancement in technology make people better at BJJ but just worse at life? That's where I'm trying to go with it because I think it is possible that using technology as it goes could help develop you know, a I wouldn't say a better way to do jujitsu, but maybe a more efficient winning way to do it. In the same way when people were like, Well, we're just gonna pull guard and bolo and take you back. I'm not saying it's beautiful jujitsu, I'm just saying there were people who did that and they're fucking good at it.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

In the same way, people who are like, Oh, I'll just pull guard and leg lock.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah. You know, it's not saying it turned out it works. It does work. I mean, look, I I because I because what it all like what it all sort of distills down to in my mind is this is this quest for like more technical knowledge, right? All the stuff that we've seen in jujitsu really has been the if we look at when we started, right, those the other days, we were kind of starved for knowledge, for technical knowledge. Sure. Because like you said, there was like one guy in in Victoria who had like been to Brazil once and like was a bluebelt and you know was he here sharing his shit. And Gracie Mag and Yeah, and so then over time, right? And and then all of a sudden, like to where we are now, like you were saying, there's all the subscription platforms, there's all the free shit on YouTube, Instagram. There is now this abundance of technical knowledge, right? Yeah, and it's I mean, I've I've stated this many times, but there's too much knowledge now, right? There's too much information for grapplers out there. You like you now you then the knowledge is knowing how to organize all that free technical knowledge, right? Or you know, even the paid stuff. Just discern. That's right, yeah, like pick and choose. But so um I don't think that I don't think that an increase in technical knowledge access, right, is is gonna be the thing. Sure, it might push the needle in a minor way for a subset of folks, but I really think it's about how the fuck do you stay on the mats, healthy? How do you show like how do you keep your motivation good? How do you stay distant? Like all that shit that we talk about all the fucking time. That's that's the shit that like that's the human experience of like how do I fucking show up three days a week for whatever it is, whether it's 10 years, like we all have always said, or maybe it becomes seven years. Yeah, but it's still that's still gonna be a huge hurdle.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

No, I agree. I think the most important thing is your ability to stay engaged, right? Like I'm I I'm not I'm probably playing devil's advocate a little bit here, right? Because I don't, I'm not, I'm not like a pro AI guy. That's not what this is. You're fucking bullshit, bro. You had a different look in your eyes, you came back from that plane.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

I took the blue pill.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Jake is like, I'm still in the matrix. I'm an agent. I knew it, you broccoli headed motherfucker. Mr. Worthington. We've been watching you. No, look, I I think honestly, the the all the things that we've talked about relevant to jujitsu, yes, the health and the well-being that br that comes from being part of a community is the most important thing. That's that's 100% what it is. That's my that's my take on the why BJJ is so good and why we love it so much.

Discernment Beats Endless Technique Videos

SPEAKER_01 19:19

But what I'm saying is when we come to that idea of too much information, if you can train a model, this is big if, but let's say you can train a model, it can be the discernment and it can tell you, oh, I've run those calculations and actually this is the best way to the back. You know.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, but but there is but but that also imagines that there is a definitive fixed best way to the back. There will be at a critical point. Mathematically, there will be. No, there's not because the techniques work based off what the reaction what people are doing now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

So it's like, well, if you're if you can if they're attacking the calculation a cabillion times, no, but you'd have to rerun it every every three months.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Sure. So in that way, it can it can it and it can only work off the information that's provided by real humans. Sure. So in that way, is going to the real human is going to Levi or Lockheed or Danaher, is that not always going to be never the opportunity? Well, that's true. It might democratize that. No, no, I'm just what I'm all I'm saying. But they got platforms already.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, they do. But what I'm saying is bear with me. Just go, I'll I'll I'll finish this up real quick. I'll pass the phone. Play that fucking play that devil's advocate. No, no, I'm just I'm just saying you only have so much time and so much life and so much energy, right? And it we have talked about how good it is that you can still access a guy like Lachlan or you can go train with Dan Hurtwell if you're elite. You know, like now it's like you can't just go to Kingsway unless you're you know what I mean? Like you've got to go to a different academy before you like there's there's it's starting to have layers. You can't eventually it will be like Roger Federer, you won't be able to go and learn from Roger Federer. So I believe that there will be a point in which, like you say, there's it's not a question of more information, more technical knowledge, it will be being able to discern what is the right way or the the way to apply it. And I think that technology can assist in that. And whether or not AI reaches its potential or anything else like that, who fucking knows. But at the end of the day, I think we are gonna see a generation of people who are leveraging the fuck out of it and getting better. I'm not saying there'll be better people, and I'm not saying their experience is richer or better, or you know, like it's it's a a method towards being better at jujitsu, but I actually think the path of connection, training with folks is is a richer life. That is the better life, not the more technically improved.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think you're probably I think you're probably right. We will see some folks like that. Yeah, fuck whatever. I just the it's it's things whatever progressing in some direction. But um I can't imagine it's gonna, I can't imagine it would ever replace or would ever become the predominant thing, you know. I could imagine it, it might my take would be like, yeah, but it would be like there'll be like one dude in each comp, one woman, that's like you'd be like, oh wow, that person that doesn't talk to, and then they make see they don't make eye contact. It's because they're AI trained.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Well they've got the they've got the lens in there and they're getting they've got the chip in the ear, like they're getting updates. Yeah, that's not legal in IBJF. It's like we're at fucking grappling industries, they can that's right, they're cybernetically enhanced, and they start cutting off everyone's ear and start wearing it as a fucking necklace. No, that's not you're just like the others. Yes, we yes, we are. There it is.